Israel: what is the REALISTIC solution?

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by ArabJew

i strongly oppose a two state solution - it will solve nothing and only serve to create one or more non-viable states. this calculation includes variations of 'safe passage' between the strip and the bank. a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza even if linked is not a viable solution to the refugee problem. it simply cannot hold them, even under the ludicrous assumption that the world will invest scores of billions of dollars and monitor that they do get invested properly.

to see why this will never work, consider this: what form will palestine take? what will be its ideology, that bonds it together? how will that ideology contain peace agreement with opposition to israel, either nationalistic or islamic?
what form will israel take? what will be its ideology, that bonds it together? how will that ideology contain peace agreement with opposition to israel, either nationalistic or islamic?
(on our behalf, i can guarantee that at most 3% of israelis harbor expansionist dreams, btw, the entire left-right axis here revolves around palestinian territories. please cut that 'nile to furat' bs out of this discussion)

try to play this script with various possible ideologies - islamist, secular nationalistic, pan-arabist, pan-syrianist, confessionalist and westernist. post your results here, i'm interested in others going through that mental exercise.

I agree, a 2 state solution is BS and will not work. What do you think would be a viable solution then? Are you proposing a one state solution?

[loubnaniTO]

Once again, i am not attacking the resistance, In fact i really believe we'd be better off without Israel around. But i am just questioning the sometimes overconfidence that we sometimes have that we can eliminate Israel.

Originally Posted by mehdi soldier

well from simply knowledge from football coaching,players are told that the best form of defense is attack.for the fact that groups like hezballah or hamas are resistance movements and they are meant to defend their countries by resisting doesnt mean they cant resist by attacking the enemy or pushing them all the way back into their backyard and if possible into the sea as the popular cliche goes.

I understand the soccer tactics or strategies, and i know they can apply to wars, but in the case of Israel vs. Resistance, the equation is completely different. The Israels are failing in attacking the resistance and/or invading/expanding. But in their own territory, they're pretty protective. Even infiltrating suicide bombers is no longer as easy as it used to be before.

i beg to differ."israel" in 2006 had objectives that were achievable.they wanted to create a 20km buffer zone in south lebanon,free the two captured soldiers,disarm hezballah,etc.if you simply say they failed to eliminate hezballah,naturally that sounds too cheap a victory for the resistance.its close to impossible for anyone to eliminate a movement.

i didnt mean to undermine the victory... I know Israel had the objectives you listed, but i still think their ultimate objective was, if not to eliminate HA, to at least inflict serious damage to the structure, leadership and support for HA, and they failed.

"israel" can be eliminated but zionism cant be eliminated.zionism is a movement or an ideology fixed in the minds of people who believe in it.zionism was before "israel" and will remain even after "israel" is eliminated.the only difference that is if or when "israel" is eliminated the zionist movement wont have a place in the middle east again.it will have to exist in exile.zionism in the middle east will become outlawed as nazism in germany and apartheid in south africa/

"israel" failed in achieving all of its objectiveS in july 2006.that is no coincidence or simply because hezballah outlived the war.its because hezballah stood its ground on the battlefield and taught the zionist soldiers lessons never to make an adventure into lebanon.it was a hard fought and a hard won war for the resistance in lebanon.hezballah didnt won that war simply because it continues to exist or was not eliminated.

There is one way this plan would work.. (1) the arabs unite (after some of the regimes get toppled), (2) the US is no longer a superpower (which can happen if this stagflation/depression gets out of hand.. which is possible!), (3) the rest of the world is too busy (again, maybe global depression?), and (4) the resistance keeps getting continuous supply of weapons.
Without these ingredients, i see the option of removing Israel as a nation a little far fetched.

i think the nuclear weapons "israel" have (if any) are as good as the knives in my kitchen.if they eventually use that weapon they will commit suicide which i guess is against the doctrines of judaism.the weapons they are threatening others with is as much of a threat to them.they should also be scared of those weapons.it will be like a fart.both the one who farted and the one standind close will smell it.

When i was talking about nuclear weapons, i was thinking more of a regional war, say if Iran gets involved and sends missiles to Israel. Trust me, the Israelis have waited thousands of years to get a nation, between getting "eliminated" and using their nuclear weapons, they will use them.

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by loubnaniTO

Once again, i am not attacking the resistance, In fact i really believe we'd be better off without Israel around. But i am just questioning the sometimes overconfidence that we sometimes have that we can eliminate Israel.

I personally know that you not attacking the resistance, and am sure that you would prefer a ME without Israel, but may I ask you a question, do you believe in justice, karma, and that right will always win in the end?

My views differ from yours in that mine include a lot of Islamic ideology and belief in the truth of scriptures about the defeat of Israel. I did have the exact same views as yourself, but times have certainly changed and facts on the battleground speak louder than any words. Israel can not continue the way it is going, it eitherr changes, adapts and becomes a good neighbour, or doom is on its way, with every drop of blood spilled, it gets closer.

[loubnaniTO]

Originally Posted by Abufijli

I personally know that you not attacking the resistance, and am sure that you would prefer a ME without Israel, but may I ask you a question, do you believe in justice, karma, and that right will always win in the end?

I believe in Justice and in Karma... not sure about the last part though. The right will always win in the end? which end? and which right? and isnt it that everytime a "right" wins another "wrong" is born?
Karma is very effective, but karma is relative. What is "right" for us, is wrong for others, and what's right for them is wrong for us. And if each side truly and genuinly believes that they're right, then karmas clash. We call them Zionist evil, they call us terrorists... I live in north america, and i tell you, they believe it with every breath of their lives.

My views differ from yours in that mine include a lot of Islamic ideology and belief in the truth of scriptures about the defeat of Israel. I did have the exact same views as yourself, but times have certainly changed and facts on the battleground speak louder than any words.

we certainly disagree here Not because I might be from another religion, but we disagree in our view of religion and "scriptures". I will respect yours, and I'm sure you respect mine. PERSONALLY, i don't believe in scriptures or "divine" wars or written destinies. I believe in the will of the people and their... karma . Scriptures and religions do help in that they lift up the moral and remove the fear associated with the loss/death in a war. In my (PERSONAL) view, the great victory of 2006 was not Divine, it was the fruit of the strong will of the fighters, their strong belief in their cause, and the strength and intelligence of the leadership. Ghandi's victory over the British (with no arms) wasn't with the help of God, but the strong belief of Indians in their rights.

Israel can not continue the way it is going, it eitherr changes, adapts and becomes a good neighbour, or doom is on its way, with every drop of blood spilled, it gets closer.

I dont disagree with you here... but it's interesting you mention "neighbour". HA and Hamas' ideology is that Israel should be eliminated. I like what you said here better.

Ok just to end this long post, and so that i don't come across as being negative. I am not. I am actually very proud of what the resistance has achieved. But i am realistic, and although during wartime it is ok to push the "elimination" agenda as a strategy, but at some point we should be realistic and consider that, if (by karma) the moderates prevail in Israel, we should push a mode moderate agenda and consider a compromise solution that could be acceptable to all.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by loubnaniTO

Once again, i am not attacking the resistance, In fact i really believe we'd be better off without Israel around. But i am just questioning the sometimes overconfidence that we sometimes have that we can eliminate Israel.

Very much understood. It's a natural thing. You do not have the same beliefs as HA or Hamas, so it's only logical that you question the 'overconfidence' of eliminating Israel. All we need to do is look back at history, to conquer and flourish over a piece of land, you HAVE to be able to get rid of the inhabitants. This is how western coutnries came to be. But when it comes to Israel, they can never either outnumber, or get rid of, or even stop the Palestinians and their resistance movements. And mind you, no "Empire" erected on poles of tyranny lasts forever. They are destined to perish as long as there are people willing to resist.

إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَجَعَلَ أَهْلَهَا شِيَعًا يَسْتَضْعِفُ طَائِفَةً مِّنْهُمْ يُذَبِّحُ أَبْنَاءهُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءهُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ
وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ
وَنُمَكِّنَ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنُرِي فِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ وَجُنُودَهُمَا مِنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَحْذَرُونَ

غُلِبَتِ الرُّومُ
فِي أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ وَهُم مِّن بَعْدِ غَلَبِهِمْ سَيَغْلِبُونَ
فِي بِضْعِ سِنِينَ لِلَّهِ الْأَمْرُ مِن قَبْلُ وَمِن بَعْدُ وَيَوْمَئِذٍ يَفْرَحُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ
بِنَصْرِ اللَّهِ يَنصُرُ مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الرَّحِيمُ
وَعْدَ اللَّهِ لَا يُخْلِفُ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

So you see, we can't convince each other nor can we discuss things we will never agree on. Each has his own views and opinions. Again, I completely understand your concern, and had I been in your place I'd say exactly what you are saying. It's hard enough to discuss such topic with a Muslim who differs, you can imagine how it'd sound to someone else lol. What's factual is that we've created a resistance based on our beliefs which are tried and tested. Similarly, we also aspire for more and we will get what we want with complete confidence or rather overconfidence.

Yes, Israel will be eliminated.

[AliArz]

What is for sure is that the International Community, under the hegemony of the United States and it's Israeli allies, will work to eliminate Hezbollah and Hamas by all means.

But they will fail...

Hezbollah and Hamas will also try to eliminate its enemy, the Israeli state.

But they too, will fail...

The circumstances in the next few months and years will call on the moderates on both sides to come up with a kind of peace establishment.

The CIA will try to eliminate Hezbollah by causing division inside the group. They will buy some members from the militant movement, and create a setting for a leadership crisis. I think there will be a fight between Sheikh Nasrallah (current leader) and Sheikh Qassem (potential successor). This will divide Hezbollah into 2 different groups, and weaken the party/militia's powerful assets. I think that scenario will occur when there will be a regime change in Syria (with Assad ousted), and when Iran will try to work on an agreement with the United States.

As for Israel, it is already weak: they failed against Hezbollah, and they are not doing well against Hamas today.

This will force the Israelis to call for a moderate leader who can request a peace agreement (if they want to survive), and the Palestinians will call on a moderate like Abbas to take over the whole Palestinian leadership and make peace with a moderate Israel. This will create the circumstances for a Palestinian-Israeli peace deal with the 2-state solution at its relevance.

The Lebanese will call for the same thing in the future to come. A moderate like Berri will try to work on a peace establishment with Israel. I don't know when that's going to happen, but I know that it is going to occur one day.

Best regards.

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by loubnaniTO

I believe in Justice and in Karma... not sure about the last part though. The right will always win in the end? which end? and which right? and isnt it that everytime a "right" wins another "wrong" is born?
Karma is very effective, but karma is relative. What is "right" for us, is wrong for others, and what's right for them is wrong for us. And if each side truly and genuinly believes that they're right, then karmas clash. We call them Zionist evil, they call us terrorists... I live in north america, and i tell you, they believe it with every breath of their lives.

Hala2 we can argue that each side knows it is right, but truth and rightesnous and not variable, they are a constant, just because israel believes they are right does not make them so, the fact remains that they live on stolen land, nothing can change that.

we certainly disagree here Not because I might be from another religion, but we disagree in our view of religion and "scriptures". I will respect yours, and I'm sure you respect mine. PERSONALLY, i don't believe in scriptures or "divine" wars or written destinies. I believe in the will of the people and their... karma . Scriptures and religions do help in that they lift up the moral and remove the fear associated with the loss/death in a war. In my (PERSONAL) view, the great victory of 2006 was not Divine, it was the fruit of the strong will of the fighters, their strong belief in their cause, and the strength and intelligence of the leadership. Ghandi's victory over the British (with no arms) wasn't with the help of God, but the strong belief of Indians in their rights.

Your views are respected, I also do not believe in written destinies either, this world is built on free will, I do not want to go into a religious discourse but scriptures do not know the future because we are pre destined, its because God lives outside the realm of time which he created. I'll leave it at that, this is totally a different topic.

I dont disagree with you here... but it's interesting you mention "neighbour". HA and Hamas' ideology is that Israel should be eliminated. I like what you said here better.

Ok just to end this long post, and so that i don't come across as being negative. I am not. I am actually very proud of what the resistance has achieved. But i am realistic, and although during wartime it is ok to push the "elimination" agenda as a strategy, but at some point we should be realistic and consider that, if (by karma) the moderates prevail in Israel, we should push a mode moderate agenda and consider a compromise solution that could be acceptable to all.

I may have to clarify my position.

Israel as a jewsish entity is not my neighbour, and I do not see it as a lasting entity, it will go into the dustbins of history. WHat I mean by a good neighbour is the total abolition of the idea of a jewsish homeland for jewish people, and live in this region as neighbours, at one with the Palestinians, with equal rights to both sides in a totally secular state.

Cheers....

[june22]

i know this doesn't sound realistic, but justice will eventually prevail. the state of israel was founded through terrorizing innocent defenceless people, and now, after 60 years of wars in which israel has used the most horrifying weapons, the resistance is stronger than ever. with every palestinian casualty the sprirt of resistanse is becoming stronger. i believe in justice, and i believe in simple logic, but i know this may take years and years to happen. the land will return to its rightful owners who are given more reasons to fight as we speak.
however, i've read of a solution that is now being discussed widely, one that involves a peace treaty and a placement of all refugees in countries all around the world. i think it will take place soon, the whole war today is to iliminate its possible opposition, hamas,but on the long run, i dont think it will stand. israel was built on the blood of an innocent people, and it will be eliminated with their blood too.
i mean are their any examples in history that states otherwise? the whole world is changing constantly, nations much greater than israel are now forgotten.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by june22

i know this doesn't sound realistic, but justice will eventually prevail. the state of israel was founded through terrorizing innocent defenceless people, and now, after 60 years of wars in which israel has used the most horrifying weapons, the resistance is stronger than ever. with every palestinian casualty the sprirt of resistanse is becoming stronger. i believe in justice, and i believe in simple logic, but i know this may take years and years to happen. the land will return to its rightful owners who are given more reasons to fight as we speak.
however, i've read of a solution that is now being discussed widely, one that involves a peace treaty and a placement of all refugees in countries all around the world. i think it will take place soon, the whole war today is to iliminate its possible opposition, hamas,but on the long run, i dont think it will stand. israel was built on the blood of an innocent people, and it will be eliminated with their blood too.
i mean are their any examples in history that states otherwise? the whole world is changing constantly, nations much greater than israel are now forgotten.

I agree although my opposition on qualifying Israel as a "nation".

Israel is not a "nation".It's a bunch of bloodsuckers that mostly came from Europe and Ethiopia to rape and steal others lands and properties,and kill the original owner.

Wa Qtada El Tawdi7.

[taifoon]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Very much understood. It's a natural thing. You do not have the same beliefs as HA or Hamas, so it's only logical that you question the 'overconfidence' of eliminating Israel. All we need to do is look back at history, to conquer and flourish over a piece of land, you HAVE to be able to get rid of the inhabitants. This is how western coutnries came to be. But when it comes to Israel, they can never either outnumber, or get rid of, or even stop the Palestinians and their resistance movements. And mind you, no "Empire" erected on poles of tyranny lasts forever. They are destined to perish as long as there are people willing to resist.

إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَجَعَلَ أَهْلَهَا شِيَعًا يَسْتَضْعِفُ طَائِفَةً مِّنْهُمْ يُذَبِّحُ أَبْنَاءهُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءهُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ
وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ
وَنُمَكِّنَ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنُرِي فِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ وَجُنُودَهُمَا مِنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَحْذَرُونَ

غُلِبَتِ الرُّومُ
فِي أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ وَهُم مِّن بَعْدِ غَلَبِهِمْ سَيَغْلِبُونَ
فِي بِضْعِ سِنِينَ لِلَّهِ الْأَمْرُ مِن قَبْلُ وَمِن بَعْدُ وَيَوْمَئِذٍ يَفْرَحُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ
بِنَصْرِ اللَّهِ يَنصُرُ مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الرَّحِيمُ
وَعْدَ اللَّهِ لَا يُخْلِفُ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

So you see, we can't convince each other nor can we discuss things we will never agree on. Each has his own views and opinions. Again, I completely understand your concern, and had I been in your place I'd say exactly what you are saying. It's hard enough to discuss such topic with a Muslim who differs, you can imagine how it'd sound to someone else lol. What's factual is that we've created a resistance based on our beliefs which are tried and tested. Similarly, we also aspire for more and we will get what we want with complete confidence or rather overconfidence.

Yes, Israel will be eliminated.

That is the right spirit, but do not commit the same mistake as the Israelis do and let the spirit run amok on reason.

Yes, you may be able to eliminate Israel. And No, not through war or force.
You can eliminate Israel through making FAIR PEACE with Israel. This is where you should aim and shoot.

The moment you start pushing the Israelis, if ever, into a corner where they find themselves into the same "defense" position as you are today, the roles will be switched. You yourself are a living example of how it works. The more aggressive Israel gets in trying to eliminate Hamas or Hizballah for that matter, the stronger those entities become..

When your survival is threatened, instinct kicks off and you'll "resist". A publically declared determination and will to exterminate the Israelis, makes them morally and physically stronger and more determined to Resist you. Heck, this is what they, cunningly and half-falsely, already use to fuel their assaulting aggression.

Your name is Resistance, and the name defines already your power limits. Your powers are good enough to halt and neutralize Israel's aggression, maybe at some point completely eliminate it in favor for forcing FAIR PEACE on it; not really eliminate Israel itself as a country, neither now nor at least for few decades ahead. They have an army of 500-700.000 recruits, how many do we have? Their war machine is a thousand times ours, on many levels.. Look at the Syrians, they, if any, could fairly present themselves as a power match to the Israelis, still no one has yet heard them declare their will to exterminate Israel..

Elimination rhetorics make therefore no sense, at least not when a nation like Iran has no direct borders with Israel, against which those elimination dreams/slogans/intentions could be banged and proved, and when we ourselves, are still in the Resisting business, and ages away from obtaining the numbers and tools needed for such a huge enterprise as of eliminating another well established entity, however unjust we deem its existence.

You can only eliminate Israel with FAIR PEACE, only, by getting back occupied lands, with an arrangement for the right of refugees to go back home -or elsewhere where there's space-, in exchange for embassies and a peace treaty. When this is done, no more is needed. Make sure no economical ties with Israelis are made and you can sit back and watch Israel wither slowly.

You might ask: And what if Israel rejects even that? a Fair Peace? Indeed, we'll be at the same spot as we are today; and if Israel's screaming need for military superiority over the region is one of the air components it breathes, we'll keep making sure that air is constantly polluted. We make sure we're always ready for Israeli warfare as we should for peace. Because at some point, the regular Israeli citizen will finally question the futility of living in an escalating state of fear and war, especially when those fears are daily stirred by frequent reports about the strong possibility that "the enemy" might soon stand ready with own nuclear bomb.. You see, If Iran gets a nuclear bomb, the middle east will get peace sooner than your black eye blink, 7adret sittna Dalzi.