How to implement a secular system in Lebanon?

[Salome]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

I will answer your question if you answer this: Name one successful country with a political governance system like the one in Lebanon today. In fact name any country with such a governance system.

You answer my question first, I asked you first.

Between this is irrelevant, since we know that the present system needs to be changed.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Salome

You answer my question first, I asked you first.

Between this is irrelevant, since we know that the present system needs to be changed.

There are no two identical governance systems. Every country and every society evolves differently and must find a formula that woks for them. I understand it is not a simple thing to organize a sectarian federal state and it has never been done yet, but that doesn't mean it can never be done. To simplify this discussion focus on partition it is a simpler concept: divide the country and have separate countries with open borders treaties and broad cooperation treaties. Each country can chose its governance system and evolve.

[Ya-Shawish]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

I am not dreaming, I am theorizing. If you believe federalism is tough to organize go with partition.

Remember the ultimate goal is peace, hope, evolution, and hopefully secularism, if the society decides to evolve in that direction.

Until you answer me on a couple of questions (which so many time I have directly asked you and which so many times you avoided, la2ano 7ashartak bi beit el yek) you will allow me to ridicule your theories.

You have yet to provide a single valid answer on how you want to form the central government which will "Theoretically" be the "Lebanese federation" formed by your beloved Christians state and the others. So let's say that "Theoretically" you succeeded in implementing this system. Which federation will be responsible of foreign affairs? Which will be in charge of defense? And how will you prevent conflicts and avoid having the same problem we are having now!!!

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Ya-Shawish

Until you answer me on a couple of questions (which so many time I have directly asked you and which so many times you avoided, la2ano 7ashartak bi beit el yek) you will allow me to ridicule your theories.

You have yet to provide a single valid answer on how you want to form the central government which will "Theoretically" be the "Lebanese federation" formed by your beloved Christians state and the others. So let's say that "Theoretically" you succeeded in implementing this system. Which federation will be responsible of foreign affairs? Which will be in charge of defense? And how will you prevent conflicts and avoid having the same problem we are having now!!!

Ya shawish, I already answered you all in the other thread: We are not going to organize and design a complex federal system through posts in this forum.

Again for the purpose of simplifying the discussion focus on the idea of partition.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

There are no two identical governance systems. Every country and every society evolves differently and must find a formula that woks for them. I understand it is not a simple thing to organize a sectarian federal state and it has never been done yet, but that doesn't mean it can never be done. To simplify this discussion focus on partition it is a more simple concept:divide the country and have separate countries with open borders and broad cooperation treaties. Each country can chose its governance system and evolve.

You can not name any successful one, but I can refer to the Iraqization, or was that the Lebanonization actually the recipe for disaster? Havent we seen that?

We have discussed your ideas of federalism before, no need to repeat it all over, am afraid it will continue to remain just a theory in your mind for the future too.

[joseph_lubnan]

guys it is useless to change and hijack this thread to make it a federalism and partition thread. Please, in replying to my post focus on the goal of using partition as a vehicle to secularism, and not on partition or federalism itself...

[GeorgeY]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

I will answer your question if you answer this: Name one successful country with a political governance system like the one in Lebanon today. In fact name any country with such a governance system.

all democratic governments joseph; i will elaborate a little more, whatever the elections in lebanon look like there is no way the current parliment will change, give or take 10%. there are no districts in lebanon the will drastically change their electors depending on government or elections.

sadly there is a point i want to elaborate on is that whatever source of government the same ppl will come out, u cannot remove them simply like that. there r many factors (in my opinion) forcing lebanon to stay in a statico and de-facto military rule (i am not going to elaborate on that and i dont mean it in the way u do) if u want. those points are
1- israel
2- outside interference (dependant on the first point)
3- aqaliyeh in our region (druze, christians)(i not sure of that but i think if lebanon was only a muslim state there wouldnt be such problems)

i dont see a scenarion solving all those issues unless first step all muslims make real peace with israel (i mean by real peace is the ppl) and then things solve each others

i think the real problem escalated into this issue because of the arab wars and hatered towards israel. my opinion at least

[Shuyu3i]

Originally Posted by Dark Angel

people should know when to give up.

it is not worth it anymore.

you cannot force anyone to behave and think differently, either you accept them for what and who they are or you dont.

people can change only on the surface, but their core will remain the same.

khalas give it up, enough dissapointments, enough wasted efforts, enough silly lectures.

go live your lives and have some fun.

why u blaming the people they are waiting for change. It is a pity that these politicians are the most tribal and sectarian leaders lebanon has ever seen and this is going to cause lebanon to collapse. we started with this stupid election law and we keep on going.

[Ya-Shawish]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Ya shawish, I already answered you all in the other thread: We are not going to organize and design a complex federal system through posts in this forum.

Again for the purpose of simplifying the discussion focus on the idea of partition.

Again I am not asking you on the frigging whole engineering of a federal system,, which I still think that it is a ludicrous idea for a country like Lebanon.

Will you, for once, answer this frigging simple question? Who will represent the foreign affairs when we are having tons of problems agreeing on a simple communication ministry and how will you prevent conflicts when bigger issues surface such as natural resources if there are any??

If there is anything I hate about your thinking it's the unwillingness to use a simple notion like "What if"... this is what I believe is called closed mind?
For Pete's sake Joe, for once, for once be true to yourself and ask yourself these questions. The least you could do is try to convince me, and like hell you will when you provide no "Theoretical" arguments. What you are asking me to do is to accept the idea of partitioning sign up a paper that yes we will create federal states before we even thing about it's feasibility as if you are planing for a short term and then you will worry about the **** hitting the fan when the **** hits the fan...

I find it rather ridiculous that you are wiling to engineer a federal country when you are unable to answer this simple question... WHO WILL REPRESENT THE FOREIGN MINISTRY? AND WHAT GUARANTEES WILL YOU HAVE TO PREVENT CONFLICTS JUST LIKE THE ONES WE ARE HAVING NOW???

Sheesh!!!

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Ya-Shawish

Again I am not asking you on the frigging whole engineering of a federal system,, which I still think that it is a ludicrous idea for a country like Lebanon.

Will you, for once, answer this frigging simple question? Who will represent the foreign affairs when we are having tons of problems agreeing on a simple communication ministry and how will you prevent conflicts when bigger issues surface such as natural resources if there are any??

If there is anything I hate about your thinking it's the unwillingness to use a simple notion like "What if"... this is what I believe is called closed mind?
For Pete's sake Joe, for once, for once be true to yourself and ask yourself these questions. The least you could do is try to convince me, and like hell you will when you provide no "Theoretical" arguments. What you are asking me to do is to accept the idea of partitioning sign up a paper that yes we will create federal states before we even thing about it's feasibility as if you are planing for a short term and then you will worry about the **** hitting the fan when the **** hits the fan...

I find it rather ridiculous that you are wiling to engineer a federal country when you are unable to answer this simple question... WHO WILL REPRESENT THE FOREIGN MINISTRY? AND WHAT GUARANTEES WILL YOU HAVE TO PREVENT CONFLICTS JUST LIKE THE ONES WE ARE HAVING NOW???

Sheesh!!!

There doesn't need to be one foreign ministry and one foreign policy. Again federalism can be anywhere on the spectrum spanning between unity and outright partition. Federalism doesn't have to be the version used in the US which you are thinking about.

Focus on partition if you want to discuss these concepts, it is a simpler discussion and achieves the same results. Think of something closer to EU not US, but again it cant be exactly like any other system...