How to implement a secular system in Lebanon?

[Salome]

Originally Posted by elias-aj

Honestly, I don't know. It depends on the Lebanese themselves. If the huge majority of the Lebanese is against secularism - and it's the case today, you can't of course implement secularism.

All you can do is promote secularism and / or promote the necessary steps to take in order to eventually implement secularism.

The idea of secularism shall be introduced to the education system and promoted to small children. Maybe the next generation will be smarter, and hopefully they dont inherit the cancers of the past.

[joseph_lubnan]

We have tribal-sectarianism. Any successful mechanism to move us forward must deal both with the tribal as well as the sectarian nature of this society.

All possible solutions are by necessity long term ones, and must be bottom up, but there can be some catalysts introduced top down, to help foment such changes but top down help can never happen under our current governance system. I believe that a step that would seemingly be contradictory to the ultimate goal of secularism can in fact be the first step allowing the country to begin to evolve, hopefully in a positive direction and towards secular government systems. That step is sectarian partition, or organized sectarian federalism. This step would allow each group to address its own demons, its own tribalism, and evolve towards the governance system they see best, while diminishing the importance of sectarian fear and polarization in shaping politics and policy. Thereafter and over a long period of time hopefully bottom up or top down movements towards secularism can have a real chance to begin independently in each of the mini-states.

All in all I predict such a process in Lebanon would take approximately 232 years 5 months and 17 days.

p.s. Please, in replying to this post focus on the goal of using partition as a vehicle to secularism, and not on partition or federalism itself. (It is useless to change/hijack this thread to make it a federalism and partition thread.)

[Salome]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

We have tribal-sectarianism. Any successful mechanism to move us forward must deal both with the tribal as well as the sectarian nature of this society.

All possible solutions are by necessity long term ones, and must be bottom up, but there can be some catalysts introduced top down, to help foment such changes but top down help can never happen under our current governance system. I believe that a step that would seemingly be contradictory to the ultimate goal of secularism can in fact be the first step allowing the country to begin to evolve, hopefully in a positive direction and towards secular government systems. That step is sectarian partition, or organized sectarian federalism. This step would allow each group to address its own demons, its own tribalism, and evolve towards the governance system they see best, while diminishing the importance of sectarian fear and polarization in shaping politics and policy. Thereafter and over a long period of time hopefully bottom up or top down movements towards secularism can have a real chance to begin independently in each of the mini-states.

All in all I predict such a process in Lebanon would take approximately 232 years 5 months and 17 days.

Can you name a country where federalism was introduced based on sectarian division, and that country was successful in the end?

[Ya-Shawish]

Originally Posted by Salome

The idea of secularism shall be introduced to the education system and promoted to small children. Maybe the next generation will be smarter, and hopefully they dont inherit the cancers of the past.

Although your solution is admirable and I support it whole heartedly however the problem also relies in the fact that the current generation is unwilling to educate the next generation for the simple reason; They have no desire to change the current system and this was reflected clearly in the last elections where the majority voted to their confession regardless of their political agendas. And the next generation will surely inherit these ideologies and pass them onto their future generations.

The reform of the educational system is as taboo as forming the government because most schools are influenced by religion in one way or another. How many schools are sponsored by Churches? How many Islamic organizations are sponsoring "Islamic" school? We have yet to introduce a common history curriculum let alone agreeing on abolishing any religious teaching in our schools.

So my friends , religious ideology is deeply rooted in our Lebanese society and no religious community would be remotely willing to even to entertain the idea to implement a secular educational system and will mobilize all their efforts to prevent these reforms. it's a simple matter of survival instinct!

Although I am all with human rights and all forms of freedom and the freedom of speech and the right the choose and and and, but some people are simply not worthy of these rights particularly in our part of the world (aka middle east). They cannot be granted these privileges because they simply do not understand them and will surely misuse and abuse these privileges. Our problem has to be rooted out by force.

Those who think that there is still hope in simple "Education" approach are clearly dreaming in high definition and surround sound!

[Ya-Shawish]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

We have tribal-sectarianism. Any successful mechanism to move us forward must deal both with the tribal as well as the sectarian nature of this society.

All possible solutions are by necessity long term ones, and must be bottom up, but there can be some catalysts introduced top down, to help foment such changes but top down help can never happen under our current governance system. I believe that a step that would seemingly be contradictory to the ultimate goal of secularism can in fact be the first step allowing the country to begin to evolve, hopefully in a positive direction and towards secular government systems. That step is sectarian partition, or organized sectarian federalism. This step would allow each group to address its own demons, its own tribalism, and evolve towards the governance system they see best, while diminishing the importance of sectarian fear and polarization in shaping politics and policy. Thereafter and over a long period of time hopefully bottom up or top down movements towards secularism can have a real chance to begin independently in each of the mini-states.

All in all I predict such a process in Lebanon would take approximately 232 years 5 months and 17 days.

Still dreaming about federalism based on sectarian partioning? You're more delirious than I thought...

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Salome

Can you name a country where federalism was introduced based on sectarian division, and that country was successful in the end?

If you believe organizing sectarian federalism is tough, go with partition then. Both options are there.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Ya-Shawish

Still dreaming about federalism based on sectarian partioning? You're more delirious than I thought...

I am not dreaming, I am theorizing. If you believe federalism is tough to organize go with partition.

Remember the ultimate goal is peace, hope, evolution, and hopefully secularism, if the society decides to evolve in that direction.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Ya-Shawish

Although your solution is admirable and I support it whole heartedly however the problem also relies in the fact that the current generation is unwilling to educate the next generation for the simple reason; They have no desire to change the current system and this was reflected clearly in the last elections where the majority voted to their confession regardless of their political agendas. And the next generation will surely inherit these ideologies and pass them onto their future generations.

The reform of the educational system is as taboo as forming the government because most schools are influenced by religion in one way or another. How many schools are sponsored by Churches? How many Islamic organizations are sponsoring "Islamic" school? We have yet to introduce a common history curriculum let alone agreeing on abolishing any religious teaching in our schools.

So my friends , religious ideology is deeply rooted in our Lebanese society and no religious community would be remotely willing to even to entertain the idea to implement a secular educational system and will mobilize all their efforts to prevent these reforms. it's a simple matter of survival instinct!

Although I am all with human rights and all forms of freedom and the freedom of speech and the right the choose and and and, but some people are simply not worthy of these rights particularly in our part of the world (aka middle east). They cannot be granted these privileges because they simply do not understand them and will surely misuse and abuse these privileges. Our problem has to be rooted out by force.

Those who think that there is still hope in simple "Education" approach are clearly dreaming in high definition and surround sound!

Well everything comes down to a vicious circle based on how things stand now. Of course I wouldnt expect an education reform from the present genius leaders....

yet many keep hope alive and pass on this idea. Can we hope for enlightenment? hmm maybe if the social gap is closed, maybe if there is a functioning transparent government...you dont need to tell me that am dreaming *sigh*

[Salome]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

If you believe organizing sectarian federalism is tough, go with partition then. Both options are there.

Can you answer my question? Please name the country

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Salome

Can you answer my question? Please name the country

I will answer your question if you answer this: Name one successful country with a political governance system like the one in Lebanon today. In fact name any country with such a governance system.