Have u lost hope in constructive political debate ?

[IamBACK]

Good point, I agree. The question is: why?

It's a cultural problem.

[sarhay]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

This is a simple yet very important Yes or No Poll

Regardless of how u identify yourself politically, have u come to the conclusion that debating politics with others in Lebanon is seriously a hopeless going nowhere case of time wasting?

Me i have come to that conclusion, & i am sure i'm not the only one

It's just a waste of breath, not because politicians don't consider our input, no but because Lebanese and common logic can't be put side to side on the same sentence.

I don't expect people to agree so the fact that Lebanese never agree is not the problem.

The problem is that basic basic VERY BASIC things can't be agreed on.

Such as who won what where..

And who said what on TV while it WAS RECORDED LIVE FOR EVERYONE TO LISTEN to.

Khalas, i lost hope in constructive political debate because Lebanese can't find a common logic axiom on very very basic things. So i'm voting YES.

Almost everybody just likes to be the prophetic preacher who can't get the simplest message through and almost everybody has hearing and vision problems.

So guys regardless who u are and who is making u feel this way, just vote cuz do u think after all said and done a million times over we reached the hopeless pointless debate stage in Lebanese history ?

I hear some say a new perspective is needed, i don't believe that.

I believe Lebanese don't know what basic argumentative logic means in the first place so that's pretty much the gist of the problem.

I also believe ancient Greeks had a billion times more common sense than us.

Statistically the result of the poll should convey the deep rooted problem of Lebanese society as a whole and from there more conclusions can be drawn about the future of our strange societies and magical national entity that is based on individual detachment from reality.

Thanks RP for such stimulating thread. I voted No simply because I still believe that there is a glimmer of hope for this nation to rise back from the quagmire it is in.
While I can't comment on the political discussion in Lebanon, geographically speaking, i can observe the type of discussion and participation taking place on this forum. I believe our make-up is the results of amalgamated factors blended in the good, bad and the ugly together to be what we are nowadays. Lebanese in general are not pragmatic but rather contempt with what they are and often they let arrogance override their critical thinking. We often confine our thinking due to many factors, beyond this discussion, which limit the space of finding common background. Individuality dominance brings selfishness, narrow-mindedness, myopic political vision and these combined could create un-pragmatic creature.
However, due to its diversity there are people in Lebanon from all political spectrum who yearn to find common ground with others, unfortunately they are masked or sided by the loud noise maker and shallow thinkers. I do believe once civil education is taken seriously across all level through curriculum improvement, political discussion moderated by professionals, vertical encouragement of civil conduct, enforcement of law horizontally, would yield some fruits for the whole society and not individual group. I experienced this development on personal level through discussion with other Lebanese and also I can see that the “diminutive” hope in the many topics on this forum could be flourished by providing such desired quality in our debates.
rgrds;

[Saladin]

I've completely lost hope in this country, The past years have clearly proved democracy in Lebanon doesn't exist. We have a team who've won two consecutive parliamentary elections and haven't been allowed to rule. It's clear that those who have weapons are the real decision makers in this country.

If resistance is a need that lebanon cant live without, then we should have a national resistance who pledges allegiance to the lebanese state only, not a shiite one who exploits these weapons to its internal advantage whenever it wishes to. If things dont change, we will never have a country for those who are suppressed won't remain unarmed for too long.

[ohyeah]

Originally Posted by Saladin

I've completely lost hope in this country, The past years have clearly proved democracy in Lebanon doesn't exist. We have a team who've won two consecutive parliamentary elections and haven't been allowed to rule. It's clear that those who have weapons are the real decision makers in this country.

If resistance is a need that lebanon cant live without, then we should have a national resistance who pledges allegiance to the lebanese state only, not a shiite one who exploits these weapons to its internal advantage whenever it wishes to. If things dont change, we will never have a country for those who are suppressed won't remain unarmed for too long.

that is the main problem Saladin when 45% of the community win 55% of Parliament seats and after that happen they don't want the whole 55% of people to join the government.

Truly that is the problem.

[Danny Z]

Originally Posted by Saladin

I've completely lost hope in this country, The past years have clearly proved democracy in Lebanon doesn't exist. We have a team who've won two consecutive parliamentary elections and haven't been allowed to rule. It's clear that those who have weapons are the real decision makers in this country.

If resistance is a need that lebanon cant live without, then we should have a national resistance who pledges allegiance to the lebanese state only, not a shiite one who exploits these weapons to its internal advantage whenever it wishes to. If things dont change, we will never have a country for those who are suppressed won't remain unarmed for too long.

Ladies in Gentlemen there is your perfect example why you can't have constructive debates with Lebanese people, I can count the numerous times I have posted replying to this same poster telling him that Taef that he brought to us by force and that we decided to accept even though we don't like it moved the powers of the president to the government, before Taef all 3 communities would each take a presidency and the three would rule, the system was crooked and Maronites used to control the government so Taef came and decided no more president powers and president cannot dissolve the parliament nor the government and the government took the powers of the president that means the government cannot be a single entity you cannot just form a single color government if you win 50%+1, but not you want to rule by force and hiding behind democracy while you know about democracy what less than I know about Chinese.
You don't like Taef change it, I don't like Taef either, I don't like any sectarian system and I would be ready to remove anything relating to sectarian appointments that includes all three presidencies, are you ready for this? Don't come hide behind Taef, democracy [] when all your thoughts emanate from sectarian hatred.

[Red Phoenix]

so far 73.91% voted yes this is quite telling of the gravity of our situation

plus guys, it helps no one to talk here about political beliefs, we done that to no avail in every other thread already

but it does help to talk about the wrong logical approaches taken when debating regardless of political beliefs

[shadow1]

I for one didnt lose any hope in any constructive political debate as I had none to begin with.
Take a civilised society like Australia for example, government and opposition fight over a particular bill because each side has its own way of making things better and they do often reach compromises. Governments govern for the whole people not just those die-hard supporters. If one is better off then the whole nation is better off.

What we do in Lebanon is fight over how to make things worse. So we never really establish a good foundation to begin with and build upon. Not to mention the fact that we agree on more than 90% of the issues with those we share the country with and yet we are constantly at each other throats as if all that is vital for our lives is meaningless like jobs, utilities, education, transport, environment, health and social security.

All those dont matter a bit to us because we are utterly obsessed with allegiances to men that have proved time and time again their ineptitute as a group if not as individuals.

It's very rare that anyone opens a thread in the political forum where 99% of forumgoers go on things that matter to us as human beings. When it comes to political gossip the excitement often reaches a level of frenzy that could at best be decribed as insane and utterly useless. And in those rare occasions when one talks about the economy or transport, hardly anyone participates. Is it any wonder we keep on sinking?

Deep down we all play the man and not the ball however we try to embroider it. Each one is a 100% right or a 100% wrong. We have always been this way.

If one were for example to read what the FM and the FPM stand for as declared goals, you would hardly notice a difference because noboby believes that the other believes what he says he believes. We are a country of blabber mouths at best, a bunch of people who seek identity in that tiny bit that differenciates them from the rest and make it out to be a whole conclusive identity.

When it comes to building walls we are masters. When it comes to building bridges we feel better barricading ourselves behind our own prejudices.

Yalla enough whingeing for one day.

[fidelio]

The problem with political debates in Lebanon is that most of the rhetoric is construed along certain coded words and messages that no one really want to touch but always want to hint to. That's why political debates usually funnel down a loophole of counter arguments that answer to nothing, but merely try to convey a sense of condescending attitude towards the "other".

Take for example the "state building" argument our ears have gotten tired of hearing in almost every loyalist argument and punchline. The Hariri Inc. want to "build a state". But the problem is that they advocate such goal with a marvelous condescending attitude towards the opposition as if the rest of the Lebanese people have no interest or intention to ever start thinking of such an achievement. That would naturally render any dialogue with the opposition as a dialogue with an extreme opponent whose goals are radically different. Of course that "state building" argument (or image) is, from the start, the tallest imaginary and imposed obstacle between the two camps in any given dialogue and one can imagine a lot of ramifications around that idea as to develop more imposed and imaginary arguments that hinder any type of rapprochement.
Of course the same thing can be said about some of the opposition's coded speech. Especially the high horse of immaculateness from any foreign interference and the emphasis on the the subjugation of others to foreign interests and agendas. Those kinds of ideas almost always turn the debates from quasi-constructive back and forth to useless bravado and rooster attitudes.

Most of the political debate in Lebanon is manufactured and tightly sealed to any kind of logical pasture because things have turned sour a long time ago and the actors have adopted certain guidelines and jargon that are far from political discourse and would fit under the label of futile demagogy.


Two people lost in a dark forest, one has a flashlight while the other holds the map. They argue constantly on who should take both items, walk first and guide the way. That's as much as one can simplify the absurdity we face.

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by fidelio

The problem with political debates in Lebanon is that most of the rhetoric is construed along certain coded words and messages that no one really want to touch but always want to hint to. That's why political debates usually funnel down a loophole of counter arguments that answer to nothing, but merely try to convey a sense of condescending attitude towards the "other".

Take for example the "state building" argument our ears have gotten tired of hearing in almost every loyalist argument and punchline. The Hariri Inc. want to "build a state". But the problem is that they advocate such goal with a marvelous condescending attitude towards the opposition as if the rest of the Lebanese people have no interest or intention to ever start thinking of such an achievement. That would naturally render any dialogue with the opposition as a dialogue with an extreme opponent whose goals are radically different. Of course that "state building" argument (or image) is, from the start, the tallest imaginary and imposed obstacle between the two camps in any given dialogue and one can imagine a lot of ramifications around that idea as to develop more imposed and imaginary arguments that hinder any type of rapprochement.
Of course the same thing can be said about some of the opposition's coded speech. Especially the high horse of immaculateness from any foreign interference and the emphasis on the the subjugation of others to foreign interests and agendas. Those kinds of ideas almost always turn the debates from quasi-constructive back and forth to useless bravado and rooster attitudes.

Most of the political debate in Lebanon is manufactured and tightly sealed to any kind of logical pasture because things have turned sour a long time ago and the actors have adopted certain guidelines and jargon that are far from political discourse and would fit under the label of futile demagogy.


Two people lost in a dark forest, one has a flashlight while the other holds the map. They argue constantly on who should take both items, walk first and guide the way. That's as much as one can simplify the absurdity we face.

human relations can degrade from good to constant fighting to finally the worst case scenario which is silence

that's the moral of the story

i repeat i dont mind endless arguing, as long as there is logic in the arguments

the old greeks loved debate, but then again one needs to be a scholar for this to work efficiently cuz imagine the horrors that would happen when kids decide play doctor, just image the horrors of lebanon

i can criticize the logical fallacies encountered here by posters and outside by ppl who like discussion, but to name them aberrant and apparent problems would require a certain level of caring that i do not currently possess

[fidelio]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

human relations can degrade from good to constant fighting to finally the worst case scenario which is silence

that's the moral of the story

i repeat i dont mind endless arguing, as long as there is logic in the arguments

the old greeks loved debate, but then again one needs to be a scholar for this to work efficiently cuz imagine the horrors that would happen when kids decide play doctor, just image the horrors of lebanon

Of course. Much like when one cannot argue physics with someone who has no notion of dynamics, does not want to confess that gravity exists and probably still believes the earth is flat because from where he's standing the horizon seems to be a straight line. It's useless.

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

i can criticize the logical fallacies encountered here by posters and outside by ppl who like discussion, but to name them aberrant and apparent problems would require a certain level of caring that i do not currently possess

Oh well, the lack of interest is laudable in this case my friend. There are far more interesting things in this world to lose time on.