Have u lost hope in constructive political debate ?

[FBM]

Originally Posted by BOILER

How can you debate with someone spent all his life licking boots, and then in a flashing moment of light, this someone starts to accuse you of being Souri Irani(wba3da ta3mit hel jazmeh ma ra7it min Ni3o)?

How can you have a constructive debate with (Wazawiz, zo3ran, militia men)?

How can you have a constructive debate with Liars?

How can you have a constructive debate with people following a murderer and portraying him as a saint?

How can you have a constructive debate with someone trying with all his means to eliminate you from the country?

How can you have a constructive debate with someone saying ''we don't want you in the country, it's just becuase of HA and its weapons, we accepted to give you some rights''?

Should I continue?


So a big YESSS, a constructive political debate is an illusion.

A more important question is how do you have a debate with someone who thinks all that about the person he's going to debate with, and already knows what your gonna say....

[Zero Cult]

Originally Posted by FBM

Please we're ahead of all that we just skip it all and head towards the bashing (which is more fun really)

A bit of bashing can be fun, bass full bashing and nothing else is plain boring and that is mostly what goes on between majority & opposition.

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BOILER

How can you debate with someone spent all his life licking boots, and then in a flashing moment of light, this someone starts to accuse you of being Souri Irani(wba3da ta3mit hel jazmeh ma ra7it min Ni3o)?

How can you have a constructive debate with (Wazawiz, zo3ran, militia men)?

How can you have a constructive debate with Liars?

How can you have a constructive debate with people following a murderer and portraying him as a saint?

How can you have a constructive debate with someone trying with all his means to eliminate you from the country?

How can you have a constructive debate with someone saying ''we don't want you in the country, it's just becuase of HA and its weapons, we accepted to give you some rights''?

Should I continue?


So a big YESSS, a constructive political debate is an illusion.

that's not it boiler, we got deaf ppl from all sides

[Orangehearted]

I voted no, as I still try to have political debates with persons who support 14 march. But frankly, most of the time I'm just disappointed by some of the arguments some of them bring up. Let me just give you examples of the things I keep on hearing which should be crystal clear at this point. I'm just stating things that have struck me, with random order.

Some of them still argue how GMA asked the Lebanese to apologize to Syria; even after the FTV lie was exposed using LBC as reference. Needless to say my mentioning of the fact doesn't make any difference.

Bassil did not improve the telecommunications. Even when they pay lower bills. Everyone I have asked says (or in the end admits) that his cellphone bill is lower than before, but has to attach some kind of excuse. Am I the only one that has never had a call disconnect? The call sometimes doesn't go through the first time, and I have to dial again, but still I don't pay for the call that didn't went through.

The fallacious argument saying "everyone is corrupt." These people acknowledge, that Hariri, wou jour maybe corrupt, but classify FPM to be part of it, even when FPM entered the government after 2005, and has a clean record.

Failure to make the final connection because of sectarian blindness. Some FM supporters acknowledge the fact that Solidere and Sukleen are ripping the people off, and they know who owns them, yet they fail to understand that if a company is stealing, the owner or beneficiaries of that company are stealing. And this particular one regarding Sukleen happened during a master's course in Environmental class.

Failing of some Tashnak partisans of realizing that some of their stances and electoral campaigns (The Armenian bloc, the benefits of the Armenian community,...) and their subsequent political choices on the party level are in fact isolationist, when they accuse LF and Kataeb of isolationism.

More on Tashnak, their claim that they lost MPs because of their strong alliance with GMA and leaving their traditional centrist position. Subsequently they call for returning to their traditional stance. They forget that even though they only have 2 MPs (by tazkieh moreover), compared to the other Armenian Parties they are getting as much as them or even more, because of their alliance with GMA.

No need to elaborate LF's representation issue and how their supporters claim majority and find ways to defend the wise Hakim who gave them 5 MPs, yet majority of christian representation.

Failure of 14ers to recognize that their electoral program didn't offer anything. Hezbollah still have their weapons and it's gonna get recognized in the bayan wizare. And this is a new one, "Defending the University of Bachir Gemmayel" is not a program in university elections.

I'm sure if I spend more time writing this, I will remember more. But despite all this, I still have not given up debating individuals from the other side. I just realized one thing through the process though. Before I used to think that people think the way they think because they are only exposed to their media, and have not seen the other side of the coin to make a rational decision. What I realized (and part of it on this forum) is that even when you present facts that are crystal clear they will still refuse it.

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Orangehearted

I voted no, as I still try to have political debates with persons who support 14 march. But frankly, most of the time I'm just disappointed by some of the arguments some of them bring up. Let me just give you examples of the things I keep on hearing which should be crystal clear at this point. I'm just stating things that have struck me, with random order.

i can't seem to positivity debate anyone, from this side or from that side.

first thing people can get emotional about it

second, ppl take it too seriously, not nearly as flexible as they need to

third, pretty much everybody is somewhat ignorant, lots of myth and legends but very little education about the history and controversies of this land

forth, lebanese dont know when to shut up to listen, and when they listen they really dont listen

fifth, ppl can't articulate, they say something and after 1 minute they lose their chain of thought yet they continue speaking and jumping from topic to topic

six, ppl believe anything they read or hear, they are way to credulous

seven, ppl don't really know what they want, they have 'notions' (especially socially suicidal ones) but really they dont know what they want

eight, very very short useless biased memory, ppl dont learn anything

nine, everybody is phobic of something

ten, everybody loves preaching

i dont know the list is endless but i will stop at ten for now

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

that's not it boiler, we got deaf ppl from all sides

Liars and dishonest people are my main concern...The rest is not really important.

I can still have a constructive debate with a criminal...But there is no use in discussing with a liar.

And lying is an art among Lebanese, and is not even viewed or considered as a bad attribute.

So it's really a societal problem first and foremost.

And until this society changes and re-integrates good old fashioned values in its education and behavior...I have no hopes in it whatsoever.

And the way I see it...This society is going more and more in the opposite direction...So a whole lifetime would not be enough for me to live to see the day where things would be on the right track.

And I normally build my hopes with a time limit...In this circumstance, my logically longest time limit is my own lifetime...Not eternity.

So here we go...Hopeless.

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Liars and dishonest people are my main concern...The rest is not really important.

I can still have a constructive debate with a criminal...But there is no use in discussing with a liar.

And lying is an art among Lebanese, and is not even viewed or considered as a bad attribute.

So it's really a societal problem first and foremost.

And until this society changes and re-integrates good old fashioned values in its education and behavior...I have no hopes in it whatsoever.

And the way I see it...This society is going more and more in the opposite direction...So a whole lifetime would not be enough for me to live to see the day where things would be on the right track.

And I normally build my hopes with a time limit...In this circumstance, my logically longest time limit is my own lifetime...Not eternity.

So here we go...Hopeless.

illogical ppl whether by intention or by nature are the prob

when europeans were irrational europe burned a million times over

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

illogical ppl whether by intention or by nature are the prob

when europeans were irrational europe burned a million times over

yes...them too. But I tend to see more liars and demagogues with ill intentions.

[Jean]

Thanks RP, we missed such constructive threads in the forum. I hope you guys keep a good level of discussion here.

As for the topic, i believe that most of forum members (for example) can participate in a constructive debate, when such debate is available. The problem is just how to start that debate, and how to maintain its level, and not to turn it into another pissing contest.

[Red Phoenix]

i had always found debating politics with loyalists to be shallow, so with time i learned that i dont want to 'convince them' nor correct their fixed views it was really pointless and i am not that generous with my time

but also as a side note many opposition members around me had a fixed view on things that i didnt share with them and it was also impossible to make any small observation that they didnt like hearing

it's like no one is listening to no one

a thing in common was shared regardless of diverging political views, and that thing is the lack of basic logic by many many supporters

ppl act confident when they talk politics but i can tell u 90% of ppl are politically confused and just adopt a stance vigorously and blindly just to force themselves to believe in something and not remain confused and hence feel safe and stable on the inside

that's the lebanese way, and such a behavior always makes of debate logic its first victim

i haven't changed my political view nor do i plan to, nor have i changed the way i look at others, i always said ppl were irrational always and from all sides

but what has changed now is that i dont really care anymore cuz clearly u can't have a normal decent talk with anyone it's almost always just an epic waste of time even for cynics, and perhaps especially for cynics cuz in the end they have no audience to note their cynicism of the masses..

ppl misconstrue what i say, dont take a hint, dont want to learn anything new and generally just want me to stop interrupting them from preaching

well here i am with their wish served, i wont interrupt their preaching hehe

it's all too much of a waste of time ;)

politics in lebanon is no longer politics, i don't know what it is

perhaps it's now the fine art of committing zealous suicide and no longer the art of running a country hehe

no effective awareness programs it's just full of PR propaganda tricks

if someone cares to know why i am an 'fpm supporter' he/she can go read my old posts i wont bother repeating myself anymore cuz the idea was to create new ideas and not get stuck defending forever old ones too hehe

the only ppl i enjoyed talking to were cynics from all sides to be honest