FPM, Signs of Significant Failures!?

[>Watani<]

Originally Posted by the jade

dude,
the best way the shut the guy up (yes he's annoying, but he's not always wrong) is to show him that the fpm is not another lebanese party.

but unfortunately people are being dragged into useless battles instead of working on themselves (may it be on the forum or in real life).
Instead of wasting time answering the dude (and if anyone could tell me what good would it make to answer him, i would be glad) concentrate on working on yourself and the party you need to be building

هذه كلمة الحق، التيار الوطني الحرّ ليس حزباً حتى الآن، فمن الخطأ اقحامه في هذه الخانة. فحتى هذا اليوم التيار الوطني الحرّ يتصرف كتيار وتنظيمه الداخليّ مازال كتيار. فما من دليل على تحوّله من تيار إلى حزب. هذا ليس لتبرير الأخطاء التي ارتكبت وترتكب، ولكن لبدء الملامة على ضوء واضح
حتى الآن التيار الوطني الحرّ مازال تياراً، كبداية إن كانت نيّة العماد عون تحويل التيار إلى حزب عليه أن يقوم فعلياً وجدياً بعدّة إصلاحات وأن يرسم استراتيجيّة لمستقبل التيار وإلاّ فإن التيار الذي ابتدأ كحالة أثارها الإحتلال السوري تعتبر منتهية مع هذا الإحتلال

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by Youchka

Franjieh:
قال: "لنقل شيئا واضحا وانا اقولها للمرة الاولى، ان الجنرال عون لم يكن يطالبنا اساسا بجبران باسيل ولكن عندما اصبح عدم توزير جبران باسيل يشكل طعنة او كسرة للجنرال عون، وعندما جعلوا من جبران باسيل قصة يريدون من خلالها تحطيم التيار الوطني الحر والجنرال، فبتنا الآن نحن لا نقبل بعدم توزير جبران باسيل".

اضاف النائب فرنجية: "بدأ الجنرال عون يطالب ويصر على توزير باسيل منذ نحو اسبوع وهو لم يدخل اساسا في الاسماء، ولكن عندما ظهرت مقولة لن نقبل بجبران باسيل فاصبح الوضع وكأنه اذا لم يتم توزير جبران باسيل فان ذلك يعتبر كسرة للتيار الوطني الحر وللجنرال عون لذلك اصبح جبران باسيل مطلبا للمعارضة ولكن في الاساس لم نطرح جبران باسيل".

This is exactly what I am talking about. Now Gebran became a request for the whole opposition and even more inside FPM.

Youchka, it's not an issue of who from FPM wanted Gebran and who didn't want him.

I wanted him as a minister more than anyone else and still want him more than anyone else because he was the best performing minister by far in Lebanon's post-war history. And now I feel compelled to talk about personal things I'd rather not mention just so people don't start misconstruing things... on a personal level, very very few people are as close as I am with Gebran. Yet, I still feel his issue was mishandled.

In short what I am saying is that first the issue didn't need defending at all and, second, Aoun was the wrong person to defend Gebran. Feb 14 created this issue out of a no-issue and succeeded in dragging Aoun into it... giving the perception that it was indeed an issue. Yes, Gebran being appointed a minister or not should have been a no-issue... but now, they succeeded into making it one.

Anyone, other than Aoun, out of many detached people from FPM could have been much more effective in dismissing the whole Gebran issue in a one minute reply to a question on TV than Aoun was in his 2 hour press conference... and I mean "dismiss" the issue completely, not defend Gebran.

How hard is it to say "When FPM participates in a government, FPM names its own ministers. Whoever doesn't accept this simple principle can form the government without FPM"?

Let me put it in a different framework, a personal one. Let's say we were trying to choose a new head for FPM. Regardless of how much you love Aoun (and I know you do), which of the 2 cases would give Gebran (and Aoun) more credibility and legitimacy in your eyes: Aoun, the non-detached, saying that Gebran is the best candidate or if I, the detached, said Gebran is the best candidate?

That's all... it's about perception... and the mistake was committed in creating the wrong perception in people's minds.

----------------------------

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by The Jade

Here again, what did I tell you ?

The "Michel Aoun knows best" attitude.
And of course the denial that the FPM is in great shape.

It's not really a question of Aoun knowing best or worst but rather of his standing int he party. After all he is the glue that holds it together and the drawcards. As imperfect as he is he managed to great success against all odds ( never mind that he squandered them with his alliances).

Will there be an FPM without him? Could this be the reason he is resorting to nepotism to perpetuate a dynasty because he knows that sort of social political philosophy is prevalent in the country?

the way I look at things Is that The FPM is still a nascent party whose political idiology (irrespective of its charter) is still amorphous or yet to crystallise in a more solid form. The feeling I get from this thread and similar threads is a sense of eagerness that you guys have and maybe because deep down we all have serious doubts whether the party will survive Aoun. He most certainly hasnt done anything to ensure that it will at least in those areas one considers to be its natural habitat.

Another issue comes to mind, are we being too idealistic simply because we have lived in truly democratic countries and have overlooked the fact that Lebanon is tribal by nature and the way to deal with such societies is the HA way.

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by The Jade

Ok so now that we've acknowledged that Aoun made a mistake, min baddo yi 7assebo ?

It is my opinion that he made a mistake. Others might think differently.

Shou ye3ni t7essbo? put him in the corner? stop paying him his salary? put him in detention?

He volunteers his time just like you and me. And he makes mistakes like you and me... I am sure much less than you and me or, otherwise, people would have followed you and me and not him.

Every politician commits mistakes... some ill-intentioned and some not... the good thing about Aoun is that his mistakes are not ill-intentioned.

Originally Posted by The Jade

The need of having a head of party and a committee elected by the party members is crucial here, since the elected people would have to get back to the people whenever they make a certain move.

Do you think that anyone could tell Aoun that he made a mistake ?
Even if anyone did, why would he listen to them ?

Yeah sure... many people can tell him he made a mistake. I can tell him. Am I not telling him right here?

Will he listen? Sometimes he does and sometimes he does not. He's an entity, like you and me, and is entitled to an opinion, also like you and me. What proves that my opinion or yours is better than his on a particular intangible issue such as this? Nothing really except time and results.

But until time and results reveal what's right from wrong, he has the final word since he is the head (and symbol) of the movement you and I believe in.

And trust me, I know him very well, he listens to people who have a track record of giving him more good than bad advice.

And I also know that even when he doesn't listen to your advice right away, if, later on, he sees that you might have been right, he will change and adopt your advice.

Meen bi 7essbo? No one in particular. Only the people collectively. Just like people 7essabo disintegrating entities like LF or Kataeb...

If you think any other form of accountability is practical or beneficial to FPM, I hate to tell you that you will get a rude awakening one day.

Anyway, our job, you and me as FPMers, is not to make him accountable. Our job is to state our honest opinion and give him advice when we can to help enhance the movement in which we believe. If the movement does not achieve the results we wanted or changes to a point where it no longer represents our ideals and aspirations, min 7essbo by disassociating ourselves from the movement.


-------------------

[GeorgeY]

first i would just like to say that this is not intended against or towards anyone

bass i ve noticed most ppl in FPM just want things perfect, fast, i dont how to describe it bass bil 3arabi el mishabra7 "yalla na7na 7izb, na7na 2waya, mna3mol w min shil..." this is not the fact of the story, most FPMers want to put the food on the fire and 5 min and it is done.

i ve noticed many ppl talking about democratic countries and lebanon is a bunch of tribes bla bla bla
i would like to answer NO and to all ppl thinking that way Lebanon is more democratic than any country in the world. i would like to emphasis on one point WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS in democratic countries or in totalitarian countries. but if every couple of years our "democratic friends" give us a quicky war what should we do? ma they r saying it "we are going to send u back to stone age" ya3ni we become classy and democratic ppl in caves?
more on democracy, i would like to imagine any "democratic" country in this world and give it half its population from another religion (without going to race which is worse) what would happen there? in the USA during the last elections anyone want to tell me black ppl voted Obama cause he is democratic. yet lebanon seemed to be doing great before the leaders changed to warlords
even more give any democratic country Solidiere and then tell me about democracy

we need to build our own lifes we need to start from scratch we need to have the basic existence of a country. some say arms with the army i say we need to have the basic needs of the 21st century. FOR GOD'S SAKE we need to have "human welfare", electricity, water,sewage, roads. and after that tell me about democracy or freedom, again we cant be "free in the 21st century" and living in caves; which are buildings in the 21st century but same characteristics (no electricity, no water, fire for warmth,etc...

unfortunately Lebanon is just a barganing card with ALL and i mean USA, Syria ,Iran ,KSA, Europe etc... even Sri Lanka i think. if the lebanese want democracy fa ehh bravo all those will stand and say bravo libnanieh habaiib albi u r democratic ppl, and yet egypt sells israel gas for cheap prices and doesnt give us ANYTHING.

another point is the silly unbelievable acceptance of FPMers for the attacks on GMA to a point that they themselves are accepting this and sometimes even having attacks on their own
taiib ppl that attack GMA (whether it was right or wrong) do they know what they r saying? do they know if what they r saying happened what will happen? do they have that vision? do they DARE do what they r saying if they were in his shoes?


AND BY THE WAY I DONT MEAN GMA HIMSELF I MEAN ANY LEADER (bass u guys are FPMers so i mean GMA in this case)

the funny things is that most ppl say "GMA fell in their trap" but do u guys think for a moment that u guys fell in their trap? attacking GMA isnt it what they want? "breaking the image of a leader" isnt it what they want? lately and with all my respect to GMA bass if a person has a stomach ache then "IT IS GMA's FAULT"? isnt that too much?
i am with democracy and i am not of those ppl that go to mouza8arat and yell and stuff and i am not even enlisted in FPM i do my democratic duty and i vote for FPM.
now the nice question
do u guys guys really think it is wise to question GMA openly during this time?
taiib if u guys are so democratic and understand in numbers and popularity stuff, what do u think will bring more voters
1 - questioning GMA publicaly
2 - saying "GMA is always right" (by the way u guys need to understand politics and elections are played on the instincts of human beings not on their wise judgement)

even if i dont know what elections took place inside FPM do u guys really think that GMA wont have the last word?

AGAIN WHY THE SO MANY ATTACK AND BASHING ON THE FIGURE OF GMA AS HEAD OF FPM, same thing that happened with the P.Lahoud, in the bashing of his picture so much that in the end the presidency got screwed. now anyone can say anything about any president after what has been said and done. and later anyone can say anything about Heads of FPM

i dont know much about parties cause i never been in any and i dont want to be in any but do u guys think it is wise to even question GMA in public? and what for? r u guys so convinced that GMA is wrong that u cant except to question him in little points? and moreover what for are u in FPM?

[Shuyu3i]

All parties make mistakes and FPM will continue to makes mistakes. They are not perfect. The main thing is that they learn from them.

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by GeorgeY

first i would just like to say that this is not intended against or towards anyone

bass i ve noticed most ppl in FPM just want things perfect, fast, i dont how to describe it bass bil 3arabi el mishabra7 "yalla na7na 7izb, na7na 2waya, mna3mol w min shil..." this is not the fact of the story, most FPMers want to put the food on the fire and 5 min and it is done.

i ve noticed many ppl talking about democratic countries and lebanon is a bunch of tribes bla bla bla
i would like to answer NO and to all ppl thinking that way Lebanon is more democratic than any country in the world. i would like to emphasis on one point WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS in democratic countries or in totalitarian countries. but if every couple of years our "democratic friends" give us a quicky war what should we do? ma they r saying it "we are going to send u back to stone age" ya3ni we become classy and democratic ppl in caves?
more on democracy, i would like to imagine any "democratic" country in this world and give it half its population from another religion (without going to race which is worse) what would happen there? in the USA during the last elections anyone want to tell me black ppl voted Obama cause he is democratic. yet lebanon seemed to be doing great before the leaders changed to warlords
even more give any democratic country Solidiere and then tell me about democracy

we need to build our own lifes we need to start from scratch we need to have the basic existence of a country. some say arms with the army i say we need to have the basic needs of the 21st century. FOR GOD'S SAKE we need to have "human welfare", electricity, water,sewage, roads. and after that tell me about democracy or freedom, again we cant be "free in the 21st century" and living in caves; which are buildings in the 21st century but same characteristics (no electricity, no water, fire for warmth,etc...

unfortunately Lebanon is just a barganing card with ALL and i mean USA, Syria ,Iran ,KSA, Europe etc... even Sri Lanka i think. if the lebanese want democracy fa ehh bravo all those will stand and say bravo libnanieh habaiib albi u r democratic ppl, and yet egypt sells israel gas for cheap prices and doesnt give us ANYTHING.

another point is the silly unbelievable acceptance of FPMers for the attacks on GMA to a point that they themselves are accepting this and sometimes even having attacks on their own
taiib ppl that attack GMA (whether it was right or wrong) do they know what they r saying? do they know if what they r saying happened what will happen? do they have that vision? do they DARE do what they r saying if they were in his shoes?


AND BY THE WAY I DONT MEAN GMA HIMSELF I MEAN ANY LEADER (bass u guys are FPMers so i mean GMA in this case)

the funny things is that most ppl say "GMA fell in their trap" but do u guys think for a moment that u guys fell in their trap? attacking GMA isnt it what they want? "breaking the image of a leader" isnt it what they want? lately and with all my respect to GMA bass if a person has a stomach ache then "IT IS GMA's FAULT"? isnt that too much?
i am with democracy and i am not of those ppl that go to mouza8arat and yell and stuff and i am not even enlisted in FPM i do my democratic duty and i vote for FPM.
now the nice question
do u guys guys really think it is wise to question GMA openly during this time?
taiib if u guys are so democratic and understand in numbers and popularity stuff, what do u think will bring more voters
1 - questioning GMA publicaly
2 - saying "GMA is always right" (by the way u guys need to understand politics and elections are played on the instincts of human beings not on their wise judgement)

even if i dont know what elections took place inside FPM do u guys really think that GMA wont have the last word?

AGAIN WHY THE SO MANY ATTACK AND BASHING ON THE FIGURE OF GMA AS HEAD OF FPM, same thing that happened with the P.Lahoud, in the bashing of his picture so much that in the end the presidency got screwed. now anyone can say anything about any president after what has been said and done. and later anyone can say anything about Heads of FPM

i dont know much about parties cause i never been in any and i dont want to be in any but do u guys think it is wise to even question GMA in public? and what for? r u guys so convinced that GMA is wrong that u cant except to question him in little points? and moreover what for are u in FPM?

We have fought all those countries in red above when they were using Lebanon as a bargaining chip before... it wasn't easy but we were able to reverse what they were bargaining for and ensure its outcome ended up in favor of Lebanese interests instead of at their detriment.

We can do it again. FPM has plenty of talent to make it happen again. But now, unlike before, we are failing in crystallizing a clear vision. Before, we had the clear vision and well-planned strategy... a long-term strategy... the only thing we didn't control is the timing... but the right timing always comes your way if you learn to be patient and diligent... and it did come and we struck forcefully when it did because we had been planning and working diligently for that moment all along and we were ready...

Unfortunately, now we are lacking that clear vision and have no long-term plan... how can one build a plan for a vision that doesn't exist? All we're doing is identifying and trying to face short-term problems and issues... from parliamentary elections to government formation to internal FPM elections to choosing names of MPs and ministers to replying to stupid Batrak and Geagea... did you know that before in a period of 15 years the names Batrak, Geagea and Gemayel practically never came up in our discussions? They were inconsequential to what we were trying to achieve...

Today, we just have scrambled thoughts about imaginary battles and dangers surrounding us...

------------------------

[The Jade]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

We have fought all those countries in red above when they were using Lebanon as a bargaining chip before... it wasn't easy but we were able to reverse what they were bargaining for and ensure its outcome ended up in favor of Lebanese interests instead of at their detriment.

We can do it again. FPM has plenty of talent to make it happen again. But now, unlike before, we are failing in crystallizing a clear vision. Before, we had the clear vision and well-planned strategy... a long-term strategy... the only thing we didn't control is the timing... but the right timing always comes your way if you learn to be patient and diligent... and it did come and we struck forcefully when it did because we had been planning and working diligently for that moment all along and we were ready...

Unfortunately, now we are lacking that clear vision and have no long-term plan... how can one build a plan for a vision that doesn't exist? All we're doing is identifying and trying to face short-term problems and issues... from parliamentary elections to government formation to internal FPM elections to choosing names of MPs and ministers to replying to stupid Batrak and Geagea... did you know that before in a period of 15 years the names Batrak, Geagea and Gemayel practically never came up in our discussions? They were inconsequential to what we were trying to achieve...

Today, we just have scrambled thoughts about imaginary battles and dangers surrounding us...

------------------------

I just wanted to point out the lack of clear of vision and the problems that the FPM is facing in crystallizing it.

And I think that the problem is people waiting for Aoun to say the word.
People became so dependent of him that they're waiting for a sign.

[Lallous]

FPM as a party has no raison d'etre because of its non-existent ideology. However, FPM as a movement in opposition of an occupation, corruption, hegemony, etc. is what makes it so strong. Let's face it : this is something I've thought about numerous time and coming from a supporter and activist, FPM wouldn't appeal for me as a party if it weren't of this phase of building a country and its institutions from scratch. I, among many, only support FPM to reach what I call a common denominator of an average state when compared with others. After that, we could have a free-market economy or a socialist one, to hell I care, that's not my concern. However, this isn't gonna happen on the short term nor on the mid-term. The problem is assuring a continuity of this movement before the shogun dies. Meanwhile, you are dealing with multiple setbacks that drift you from original goal and making you lose faith in anything called Lebanon and then as the generalissimo would say, FPM has to play the role of the state, the citizen and the media. For me, when confronted with all that, a matter of defending Bassil or not is very trivial and wouldn't affect me, but I can understand that some simple folks who fail to see the bigger picture may perceive it wrong. This is why I urge Aoun to pick his battles and avoid getting lost in futilities. We are dealing with a society corrupt to the core that you need spoon-feed it everything. Again imo, excuse my ethics, but FPM as a movement or as a party has a duty in adopting an utilitarian approach as I believe it is the only remaining hope for Lebanon. Pushing it to the limits, I would even say no for internal elections if that would weaken it or create divisions among its ranks.

[GeorgeY]

Originally Posted by The Jade

I just wanted to point out the lack of clear of vision and the problems that the FPM is facing in crystallizing it.

And I think that the problem is people waiting for Aoun to say the word.
People became so dependent of him that they're waiting for a sign.

//(again i dont mean you but anyone and most FPMers including me)

this is exactly what i mean if we r loosers enough and no one can put a vision were do u want the ppl to look to? either God or leader, still the leader is below God so we lookup to the leader and he looks up to God cause he is the only one able to solve the problems of this country, we need a miracle to get this country on its feet after the disasterous decisions of God rest his Soul Hariri. (dont even try to join the 2 my friend ma3leh)

as for the rest of the posts Amirkani and Lallous i agree with u guys 100% i really dont remember the time i had to even mention SG but now :s

the morale of this thread in my opinion is that we all make mistakes leaders and non-leaders. bass attacking the image of the party is not the place to start to build a party we r so weak to an extend that we r critisising ourselves publicly all the time (not me though) and the only thing holding FPM is the person of GMA and yet we r bashing it.

it is good to critisize oneself but it should be at least less than or equal to the times we brag about ourselves. as for FPM they either defend or critisize. i was mad how FPM was always on the defence now i really wish u guys go back to defence instead of this non-sense all time critisism. KHALLAS we did the critisizm now back to work. hold the image of the leader whomever he is. if others want to attack him leave them alone but dont join their ranks

do u guys really think this is not their "trap" for us. attacking or "mou7asabeh" a figure like GMA dont u think makes a LOT easier to attack smaller figures? what would become to FPM if they dont stick together? will there ever be a head of FPM that will survive internal bashing? they tried to break it but only GMA held it together. u want a party vote for ur leaders and stick with them even if u didnt vote them stand up behing them because they r the ones that will stand up for u when needed. dont fall into their plans and hope someday we can build this country again.

i and many others voted FPM because we thing GMA is honest and decent enough to get this country to the minimum level of a country. personally i dont care if GMA drinks all day or swears all day, and i btw love it when he start shouting, it really shows how honest he is and really mad of what is happening of all those unbelievable lies. fa keep the image of the head of FPM infront of the ppl always good so that ppl will keep on voting for u

PPL VOTE FOR IMAGES NOT INTERNAL LAWS OF THE PARTY THAT IS MADE OF 500 PAGES. VOTERS DONT CARE IF U GUYS ARE DEMOCRATIC OR NOT THEY WANT THEIR BASIC NEEDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS