FPM-rapprochements

[J. Abizeid]

Originally Posted by Picasso

HA should drop their ideology first Wilayet Elfaqih then we are ready to talk with them, because what SHN said is very dangerous:


They used to throw acid on girls, they killed and tortured some communists, they killed and kidnapped some foreigners like Michel Sora the French sociologist
حتى نغفر لأنفسنا ميشال سورا , they used to hold the Iranian flag, everything in HA, even the flags, are almost a copy of Iranian ones like Pasdaran and so. And I don't believe that they changed, they don't see me as a person who has different views, but as ضال عن طريق الهداية

And the pre-conditions continue. This won't build the country. HA supporters want to argue day and night that HA changed than they were in the 80s, but they say that the LF and Kataeb didn't change, some of them even criticize you if you bring back some issues from the 80s, it's like HA became totally a different party, and you have no choice but to believe that.

The point is, when you put pre-conditions, others will do the same, and the empty circle goes on!

About the past, we should really bring back what happened to understand why it happened, and to prevent it from happening again, not to use it as a tool to discredit our political opponent, some really use the victims' blood to win elections and to become the main party in the sect! For, how many of those who talk about what the other part did in the civil war like they care, how many of them visited the victims' families and cared for them?!

I know you are not stupid but you are catering to the stupid,
To the stupid you are catering to, check this one out,
Mother Teresa must have been from Wilayet Al Fakih in disguise?

[J. Abizeid]

Originally Posted by Picasso

HA should drop their ideology first Wilayet Elfaqih then we are ready to talk with them, because what SHN said is very dangerous:


They used to throw acid on girls, they killed and tortured some communists, they killed and kidnapped some foreigners like Michel Sora the French sociologist
حتى نغفر لأنفسنا ميشال سورا , they used to hold the Iranian flag, everything in HA, even the flags, are almost a copy of Iranian ones like Pasdaran and so. And I don't believe that they changed, they don't see me as a person who has different views, but as ضال عن طريق الهداية

And the pre-conditions continue. This won't build the country. HA supporters want to argue day and night that HA changed than they were in the 80s, but they say that the LF and Kataeb didn't change, some of them even criticize you if you bring back some issues from the 80s, it's like HA became totally a different party, and you have no choice but to believe that.

The point is, when you put pre-conditions, others will do the same, and the empty circle goes on!

About the past, we should really bring back what happened to understand why it happened, and to prevent it from happening again, not to use it as a tool to discredit our political opponent, some really use the victims' blood to win elections and to become the main party in the sect! For, how many of those who talk about what the other part did in the civil war like they care, how many of them visited the victims' families and cared for them?!

I know you are not stupid but you are catering to the stupid;
To the stupid you are catering for, especially the M14 Christians,
Welcome to Hariristan
You’re getting more than you bargained for - $1.000 a vote and a free airline ticket,
000 a vote and a free airline ticket,

[SeekNirvana]

Wouhaha, so Picasso is Saudi now? It has to be right if it's in bigger fonts.

[Positive Balance]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I think that any rapprochement with fascists will ultimately make them stronger and more radical, thus, more dangerous to our society.

Rapprochement gives the fascists legitimacy, while they should be sidelined and openly marginalized, no matter the size of their representation or popular base.

A virus that is not cured...proliferates. There is no third option here.

A late response, but I think it's still worth giving... Perhaps one of the posters from Belgium could enlighten you on the effects on the extreme right-wing "Vlaams Blok" / "Vlaams Belang" (I forget their current name, they're always changing names due to legal issues) of the 'cordon sanitaire' imposed on them by all other Belgian political parties... They were marginalized by everyone and grew and grew and grew.

Rather than marginalize them, engage with them in honest discussions. Force them to openly face whatever aspects of their ideology you see as fascist or whatever. As long as you don't talk, each side has the freedom to set the entire framework of discussion, and has the ability to just paint the other side as evil, rather than challenge and accept to be challenged on opinions and ideologies. You say you wish to marginalize ideologies, not people, but decent people who support already LF need to be engaged with, precisely by forcing the dark side of the party they support into the light. Anyway, just my $0.02

[>Watani<]

Originally Posted by seeknirvana

wouhaha, so picasso is saudi now? It has to be right if it's in bigger fonts.

لا يمكن أن تلوم أيّ لبنانيّ وطنيّ يحبّ هذه الأرض ويرى ما يحدث ولا يحترق قلبه لأنه لا يستطيع فعل شيء! هذا كلام نابع من القهر وخصوصة من اللبنانيين المغتربين الذين يحبون الوطن وكانوا يفكرّون بالعودة ليستقرّوا في وطنهم
فهل تتوقع إيجابة واقعيّة لشخص يريد أن يتفلسف ويطرح بعض الكتب هنا والأفكار هناك وبعض الأشعار! هناك واقع ويجب النظر إليه بواقعيّة، وهذه الإتهامات والدعايات الكاذبة انكشفت بسرعة بعد الإنتخابات وتبيّن بوضوح من ركض إلى أحضان خارج الوطن! عيب على هل الفيلسوف الكبير وأفلاطون هل المنتدى يحكينا بعد بولاية الفقيه، هذه فزيّعة فقط للأطفال والعقول الصغيرة

[Joumana Gebara]

Although I fully agree with what Watani said about Hariri rushing to Saudi Arabia before consulting even his Lebanese fellowmen, let me just highlight that this is exactly the point which is sickening in this country.

Lebanese should stop running to foreign forces and instead should sit down together and consult each others, set a goal and make its planing.
I would not exclude anyone because as a matter of fact, this country is made out of us Lebanese, whether we like it or not, it remains fact, and no one can cancel the other.
I also appeal to LF and all 14s to initiate embracing this thought. Only yesterday I had this bad encounter with some Kataeb guys at B2B who were insulting a guy (just because he is SSNP) and they were obliging him to make sign of the cross to prove he is Christian. It was horrible, they were about to kill each others just because of the Zou3ama, I shouted at them that if anyone dies only his mother would cry for ages while neither Amin nor Ghassan would care about their cadavres just like they did to the youth in the past (harb el fanadek 75, revolt of 58 etc...)

We really need to stop it and our only possibility is a RAPPROACHMENT between all fractions. This example occurs between the two groups everywhere in Lebanon... our youth is dying in the name of some Zaim, this is not acceptable, I hope you finally get my point. Thanks.

[SeekNirvana]

Originally Posted by >Watani<

لا يمكن أن تلوم أيّ لبنانيّ وطنيّ يحبّ هذه الأرض ويرى ما يحدث ولا يحترق قلبه لأنه لا يستطيع فعل شيء! هذا كلام نابع من القهر وخصوصة من اللبنانيين المغتربين الذين يحبون الوطن وكانوا يفكرّون بالعودة ليستقرّوا في وطنهم
فهل تتوقع إيجابة واقعيّة لشخص يريد أن يتفلسف ويطرح بعض الكتب هنا والأفكار هناك وبعض الأشعار! هناك واقع ويجب النظر إليه بواقعيّة، وهذه الإتهامات والدعايات الكاذبة انكشفت بسرعة بعد الإنتخابات وتبيّن بوضوح من ركض إلى أحضان خارج الوطن! عيب على هل الفيلسوف الكبير وأفلاطون هل المنتدى يحكينا بعد بولاية الفقيه، هذه فزيّعة فقط للأطفال والعقول الصغيرة

Watani,

The posts I was referring to are a collection of fear-mongering ideas that only connect to reality in the minds of sectarian haters. In some sense, I agree with you, this seems to be the Lebanese "nationalist" spirit so many brag about.

You might be miffing these posts as a mere sarcastic reply to an unrealistic post, but clearly, this is not the case. Without singling out the poster in this thread, the forum is full of anti-Sunni and anti-Islamic rhetoric that resembles the "fascist" stamp many forumers like to stamp on the forehead of LFers.

To get to the heart of the subject, and that is Wilayat Al Faqih and HA in general, it is amazing how "much" of a blind eye one can turn towards his allies. Wilayat Al Faqih and HA's ideology have become the right framework for the secular society nowadays. Doesn't that make you wonder what these international scholars are talking about when they speak of Islam and secularism? Why all the fuss, one wonders.

HA's ideology is a problem for a secular state, as much as any hardliner Sunni ideology is. Nobody is criticizing the approach FPM took with HA through focused dialogue and incremental approach. However, post-MoU, HA's actions have been very shy, and it might be that political rivalries ended up putting FPM in such a delicate position, but that does not negate the fact that HA has hardly made any step forward post-MoU while FPM has done nothing but offer freebies. The only disagreement the two parties had was regarding the army in Nahr-el-Bared, and that's hardly an ideological debate. In short, HA's behavior post-MoU has not been collaborative, whether with FPM or with other Lebanese factions.

Moreover, if HA's ideology were a scarecrow, and so many voted in favor of those basing their whole campaign on this scarecrow, this ought to tell you, and tell HA most importantly, that this is an important issue for many Lebanese. In this post of yours, you insulted about 45% percent, if not more, of the Lebanese voters. You are not much into democracy, are you?

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by J. Abizeid

Dear Joumana,
We all know you are sincere and honest. You struck me as a powerful and free woman insisting on expressing your mind independently. That’s why I respect you. I’m exactly the same way myself;
I’m realizing that you, Abotaeq93, and Abou sandal are dealing in good faith; I know you trust me as well. So let me say I fully agree with their above statements and thank them for that. That is not just my opinion but my experience. I said it once before, I held a kataek ID before the LF, HA or the FPM exited. You can consider me as an expert insider who saw the light long time ago. Trust me; I’m a changed man… for the better!
All it takes is some courage and integrity along with education.

Dear J.Abizeid,

إنت إبن أصل وبتحكي بأصلك

You have all courage which lacks the majority of the Lebanese living in this country. You stand with the right and have all attributes for a leader facing masses in order to conquer over the evilish destroying our country. How can I not but more than respect you?

My point in this great discussion with Abou Sandal, AboTareq and Picasso is that we have reached the end status of de facto, we cannot ignore anymore each others and are obliged to face facts. LF has an ideology and if they only would apply those national and Christian values then we can find common points. I reiterate that exclusion of parties only destroy our society and common existence house to house. Thus on the social level there is no exit from facing each others. Also on the political level (which involves the social aspect) all parties have to finally find a common ground. I cannot exclude the one or other fraction just because of its past, because we would end excluding everyone.

I finally would like to state that developed countries step over their own shadow while underdeveloped countries do not succeed in becoming pragmatic.

Let me assure you that currently all fractions are so radical that you would be shocked over so much hate which is leading us only to self-destruction and serving the foreign agenda presicely the Zionist/US one. And the most annoying is that this hate comes from people who think they are intelligent but actually are complete ignorants and do not have a notion about history, agreements, reality etc.

To you J.Abizeid not only all the best but all the brightest and shiniest in whatever you think/do/touch:)

Joumana

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by SeekNirvana

Watani,

The posts I was referring to are a collection of fear-mongering ideas that only connect to reality in the minds of sectarian haters. In some sense, I agree with you, this seems to be the Lebanese "nationalist" spirit so many brag about.

You might be miffing these posts as a mere sarcastic reply to an unrealistic post, but clearly, this is not the case. Without singling out the poster in this thread, the forum is full of anti-Sunni and anti-Islamic rhetoric that resembles the "fascist" stamp many forumers like to stamp on the forehead of LFers.

To get to the heart of the subject, and that is Wilayat Al Faqih and HA in general, it is amazing how "much" of a blind eye one can turn towards his allies. Wilayat Al Faqih and HA's ideology have become the right framework for the secular society nowadays. Doesn't that make you wonder what these international scholars are talking about when they speak of Islam and secularism? Why all the fuss, one wonders.

HA's ideology is a problem for a secular state, as much as any hardliner Sunni ideology is. Nobody is criticizing the approach FPM took with HA through focused dialogue and incremental approach. However, post-MoU, HA's actions have been very shy, and it might be that political rivalries ended up putting FPM in such a delicate position, but that does not negate the fact that HA has hardly made any step forward post-MoU while FPM has done nothing but offer freebies. The only disagreement the two parties had was regarding the army in Nahr-el-Bared, and that's hardly an ideological debate. In short, HA's behavior post-MoU has not been collaborative, whether with FPM or with other Lebanese factions.

Moreover, if HA's ideology were a scarecrow, and so many voted in favor of those basing their whole campaign on this scarecrow, this ought to tell you, and tell HA most importantly, that this is an important issue for many Lebanese. In this post of yours, you insulted about 45% percent, if not more, of the Lebanese voters. You are not much into democracy, are you?

Although I completely agree with you, you have the other side of the coin which you did not tackle concerning the fear mongering regarding radical Sunnite and the extreme power greed especially after Taef which gives me the impression that Kissinger;s plan is being applied.
Hence you have two camps here acting radically, one carrying guns and having a twisted ideology (not conform with the national status) and the other is also armed but certainly has the cash and backing even from Israel and is applying a totalitarian Sunnite agenda in this country.

Our dilemma is the "good" intention and the false planning of Christian fractions which were unable to change anything about the above mentioned fact, so we are by no means able to talk about secularism as long as the field is not ready, but at least talk about talking together and not implying any foreigners in our talks, this would be the least.

[J. Abizeid]

Originally Posted by Joumana Gebara

I finally would like to state that developed countries step over their own shadow while underdeveloped countries do not succeed in becoming pragmatic.

Let me assure you that currently all fractions are so radical that you would be shocked over so much hate which is leading us only to self-destruction and serving the foreign agenda presicely the Zionist/US one. And the most annoying is that this hate comes from people who think they are intelligent but actually are complete ignorants and do not have a notion about history, agreements, reality etc.

Joumana

Thank you Joumana,
You’re right, you’re noble.
Please check out this.
http://forum.tayyar.org/f8/noble-lie-leo-strauss-neo-conservatives-march-14-leadership-40214/
I’m more into the big picture.