FPM-rapprochements

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by Picasso

When they come into power through democratic election then they don't need you to need you to rule, the LF and Kataeb will take ministries whether you like it or not, and they decide many policies that affect many sides of your life. So, dealing with them and dialogue will be better than this enmity you want with them!

You don't like them you call them fascists, what kind of way to build a country is this?!

And how can we reach peace with the different factions of society of we see each other as cancers and viruses and we tend to marginalize each other?!

I agree with you Picasso, and I think Abou Sandal also agrees with you, our problem dwells in the cruel bitter past... as well as the current distance between everyone... I must add that it is not the ideology which seperates us... but unfortunately, the fact that almost all parties are linked to foreign forces applying their agendas in Lebanon through those parties...
This is rather the core problem and LF can definitely not free itself from being one of the puppets, thus has a negative point in my agenda

Actually the LF ideology was not discussed throughout the whole thread, and I would add that most do not even know what the LF values are but base their judgement on past and current actions
if LF would apply its ideology I think things would be smoother than they are currently.

[Picasso]

She was clear, why are you focusing only on the LF and Kataeb?! What about Wilayat elfaqih ideology, SHN said:

ولاية الفقيه أن نأتي ونقول: قيادتنا وإدارتنا وولاية أمرنا وقرار حربنا وقرار سلمنا وكذا، هو بيد الوليّ الفقيه

So, putting the decision of war and peace outside the country might be for many an extremist ideology! Should we marginalize HA then?! I say, no, I don't see them as cancers and viruses as you see your political opponents, let the other parties discuss the issue with them on the dialogue table!

The ideologies don't exist by themselves, there are people who are holding them, when you see those people viruses then you're calling for violence. And you called them fascists, how is that about pure politics and basic principles, or those are just words to not answer her by pointing out to the other ideologies!!

Pure politics and basic principles to call other people fascists and see them as cancer and virus?!

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Thanks Joumana,

I appreciate your post and agree with what you're saying. I just need to emphasize on the fact that i'm not saying that we should marginalize people...but only extremist ideologies.

Thus the policy of rapprochement between moderates and extremists, should only be on the basis of appeasement of tensions, and not legitimization of their doctrines.

Again, it has nothing to do with civic rights and equality among citizens,,,it's about confining extremist ideologies within a safe perimeter...So let us just leave the citizen out of this discussion please...i'm talking about pure politics and basic principles.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by Abotareq93

How do you call somebody who committed massacres, killed families, displaced hundrerds of thousands, backstabbed his comrades and later on, he called what he did "national duty"? How do you call his followers?
If you call him a virus or cancer or a fascist, you would be praising him.

Dear fellow and brother AboTareq

I hope this reply will not anger you, but seriously what do you call a party which has involved Lebanon in a war against the **** Israeli and led to death and massacre of children and adults... led to the displacement of thousands and hundreds of thousands of innocent people? July War was a horror in Lebanon's past, wasn't it the ideology which led to the war?
Do you know and are you aware that the ideology of Hizbullah welcomes death of children? (fida elsayyed?) LF were criminals, thieves, committed rape and violence, were vandals and killed my neighbour and best friends, led to the blindness of my father through the toxic waste from Italy, or the fact that my brother was Ansar Aoun and fought on Aoun's tanks against my Christian brothers in Adma?... so shall I hate them forever? Shall I destroy the nation because of my "hate"?
If we citizens carry on talking about the painful past, we can therapize ourselves, however, political matters and social matters should not depend from our own feelings but should be based on a vision....
Again, it is not LF's ideology "Lebanese Forces" with Christian and national values creating the problem, but several aspects: ((1) intervention of foreign forces and Lebanese politicians being their puppets, (2) power greed, (3) fact that the past did not heal, (4) fear from the unknown other one... and more...
so let us not dwell on "ideology" of LF, Kataeb are more fascists than LF, LF was only the military wing of the Christian forces and ended to be a Christian resistance applying its resistance against the Christians themselves and opporessing them...
unfortunately oppressors were oppressed previously, even Hizbullah underwent this era but Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah was so wise and overcame this era since years... I am convinced that we can all live in this country and prosper at good terms if our politicians take the right actions and do not let foreign interference stop them.

[Joumana Gebara]

If LF and Kataeb would seriously apply their ideology then Lebanon would become civilized, actually my problem with LF and Kataeb is that they are not applying their ideology, they lie to us and claim they want a civil state but do not apply a parameter from all what they claim.

I think if FPM wants a rapprochements then based on one condition:

LF and Kataeb should first apply their ideology.

[Picasso]

Words of wisdom ya Joumana, we shouldn't stay prisoners in the dungeons of the past!

We should look forward, discuss issues through a constructive national dialogue so we can work together to build the country, because if it gets ruined, this will happen to us all, not to a specific part of our society, w eza 3omrit, we will all benefit!

But what do you do with people like Abou Sandal who wants us to see the LFers and Kataeb as fascists, and consider those parties as cancer and viruses, I think this view of him will only take the country to the abyss!!

I disagree with FPM with many issues, but I have many friends among them, and I'm proud of this, because when we disagree and start marginalizing each other this will only lead to a dark future! And, definitely, we do not want this.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by Picasso

Words of wisdom ya Joumana, we shouldn't stay prisoners in the dungeons of the past!

We should look forward, discuss issues through a constructive national dialogue so we can work together to build the country, because if it gets ruined, this will happen to us all, not to a specific part of our society, w eza 3omrit, we will all benefit!

But what do you do with people like Abou Sandal who wants us to see the LFers and Kataeb as fascists, and consider those parties as cancer and viruses, I think this view of him will only take the country to the abyss!!

I disagree with FPM with many issues, but I have many friends among them, and I'm proud of this, because when we disagree and start marginalizing each other this will only lead to a dark future! And, definitely, we do not want this.

Picasso, you are being too hard to Abou Sandal, he is a really decent guy. Who knows what he went through during the war....
There are lots of painful memories connecting us to our beloved country and hindering the constructive process even between politicians.

I really would like to thank you and Abou Sandal for the decent discussion, finally something civilized and not like the remarks of a member called "soukar" 3emele shock:)

I wish Lebanon would not have the politicians who represent a factor of division, or those who incite against others, I would really like to view an end to feudalism, to foreign interference, to power greed, to corruption... but it remains a dream... I really doubt that Lebanon would change.

Thank you again, you have wisdom yourself.
And thanks Abou Sandal for creating a dynamic in the discussion.

[Picasso]

Well, thanks for you post, Joumana, and yes I wish to see what you said.

About Abou Sandal, well if he went through many hard things during the civil war, and that left stains and psychological complexes, then he shouldn't stay prisoner to those, he should look forward, the world of negativity will destroy him, for seeing other people as fascists, cancer and viruses or whatever, is not a healthy way of dealing with people who have different views. For that, I refused to see this instigation of violence and hatred toward other Lebanese because I do not want to see another civil war, and I want to say a big no to all those who want us to keep the civil war mentality!

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by Picasso

Well, thanks for you post, Joumana, and yes I wish to see what you said.

About Abou Sandal, well if he went through many hard things during the civil war, and that left stains and psychological complexes, then he shouldn't stay prisoner to those, he should look forward, the world of negativity will destroy him, for seeing other people as fascists, cancer and viruses or whatever, is not a healthy way of dealing with people who have different views. For that, I refused to see this instigation of violence and hatred toward other Lebanese because I do not want to see another civil war, and I want to say a big no to all those who want us to keep the civil war mentality!

Wars do not begin on walls and streets but in the psychology of individuals who meet on a common goal... you are right, a big no to civil war, thus what is required is an approach between all fractions, even those one may not agree or even accept.

I for example can really not accept a party which

does not recognize:

(1) the fundamental existence of Lebanon within its current georgraphy - and 18 sects (Lebanon's sovereignty)-
(2) the basic existence of Human Rights within a party's values (Lebanon's society)
(3) the rule of law as the lex toward modernization and civil status (Lebanon's judicial system/Constitution)
(4) the independence from foreign forces (Lebanon's independence)
(5) the neccessity of freedom of speech, freedom of free mind (Lebanon's liberty)

This does not mean that agree with several accords done which destroyed progress, but am literally talking about a party's ideology.

[Abotareq93]

Originally Posted by Joumana Gebara

Dear fellow and brother AboTareq

I hope this reply will not anger you, but seriously what do you call a party which has involved Lebanon in a war against the **** Israeli and led to death and massacre of children and adults... led to the displacement of thousands and hundreds of thousands of innocent people? July War was a horror in Lebanon's past, wasn't it the ideology which led to the war?
Do you know and are you aware that the ideology of Hizbullah welcomes death of children? (fida elsayyed?) LF were criminals, thieves, committed rape and violence, were vandals and killed my neighbour and best friends, led to the blindness of my father through the toxic waste from Italy, or the fact that my brother was Ansar Aoun and fought on Aoun's tanks against my Christian brothers in Adma?... so shall I hate them forever? Shall I destroy the nation because of my "hate"?
If we citizens carry on talking about the painful past, we can therapize ourselves, however, political matters and social matters should not depend from our own feelings but should be based on a vision....
Again, it is not LF's ideology "Lebanese Forces" with Christian and national values creating the problem, but several aspects: ((1) intervention of foreign forces and Lebanese politicians being their puppets, (2) power greed, (3) fact that the past did not heal, (4) fear from the unknown other one... and more...
so let us not dwell on "ideology" of LF, Kataeb are more fascists than LF, LF was only the military wing of the Christian forces and ended to be a Christian resistance applying its resistance against the Christians themselves and opporessing them...
unfortunately oppressors were oppressed previously, even Hizbullah underwent this era but Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah was so wise and overcame this era since years... I am convinced that we can all live in this country and prosper at good terms if our politicians take the right actions and do not let foreign interference stop them.

Dear Joumana,

First of all, I believe in freedom of opinion so why would your answer anger me?
You're insinuating that HA started the war with Israel or provoked it; that's totally unfair because Israel itself admitted later on and in many instances that they were planning for the war long before the 2 soldiers were kidnapped. Isreal was defeated in 2000 when they had to withdraw from Lebanon; they thought that the 2006 war was their opportunity to revenge from HA but luckily and thanks to the courage and the patriotism of HA, they were defeated once again. Of course, Israelis were encouraged by Americans and some Lebanese parties.
Moreover, could you please tell me where did HA committ massacres? I am from a Christian village in the South that was occupied until 2000; when HA fighters entered the village after Liberation, they did not catch or hurt anybody although they knew all the men and women who were members in the SLA and the people who were collaborating with the enemy. They could have killed all the collaborators but they acted in a very civilized manner.
Imagine the scene if LF or Kataeb were in the place of HA.
You're saying that LF doesn't have an ideology; I do not agree with you on this; all what LF did was based on the idea that Lebanese of different religions cannot coexist in the same country and they were planning for a Christian State; what they did in Chouf, Aley and East Saida was based on this ideology and a part of the plan: the purpose was to displace Christians from their villages and bring them to Manta2a Shar2ieh in preparation for the Christian State; they tried to eliminate anybody who was against this ideology. They still have the same way of thinking. Their behavior did not change after the war; do you remember what happened in January 23rd 2006 when Mark Hoayek was shot for the simple reason that he is an FPMer? Do you remember what happened after the death of Pierre Gemayel? They started attacking (LF more than Kataeb) the offices of FPM; they even accused GMA of being directly or indirectly responsible for the assassination.

I did not say that Kataeb are better than LF; for me, LF they both belong to the same fascist school.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Joumana Gebara

our country deserves a new birth, an open hand extended to everyone, we need to be proud one day of our achievments....

Joumana,

It is no secret that LF are born from Kataeb, who are themselves established on the foundation of the fascist ideology of the first half of the twentieth century.

On this, i think that everyone agrees.

Now, my point is that LF and Kataeb did not change a bit in their old ideology, but just gave it a more sugar coated package. Which is even more dangerous.

And no one in Lebanon is candid enough to ignore that.

But some people would love to think that this neo-look is genuine, and would love to believe that it is sincere.

Others, like me, would tell you to beware, because you are dealing with wolves in sheep coats.

So let me propose something that might help things to move forward:

You're saying that Lebanon needs to move forward and open hands extended to everyone.

With that, I'm fine. But some people need to be put under probation due to their heavy, very heavy past...And history showed us times and times again, that no matter how nice you be with them, they always openly hate you, and conspire to get rid of you.

So let's start by this: Let LF and Kataeb renounce and denounce their past ideology (fascism) openly, and we'll see.

But if they want to keep saying that they are proud of their roots and proud of their past...Then i'm afraid that it is you, the one who is extending his hand, who should then act tougher...Or you will never get what you seek.

Mind you that i am all for talks, discussion and appeasement of tensions no matter what...But this can be done, while still marginalizing the fascist ideology.

If we can all do that, and make the fascist model of thinking become something that is actively rejected (not just talks) and made a shameful taboo...Then maybe we could tackle one day the sectarian ideology...Which should be also aggressively tackled, the way fascism should be.

The thing is that you cannot solve the problems of this country, by the same old fashion of "let's just forget and turn the page" and "kissy kissy" , unless the people who created the problem, are honestly willing to change the ideology that started it all.

But if the ideologies that caused the problem are still here and persisting...then you have to fight these ideologies, and not just appease them.

Again, Let LF and Kataeb renounce and denounce their past ideology (fascism) openly, and I'm all for taking a step forward towards working with them.

But would they accept?