Formation of a Lebanese Senate

[Orange Patriot]

Originally Posted by Learned

It is counter productive to introduce an all-new body in government that only adds to the sectarian-based structure of the political system. We want to abolish the sectarian system, not preserve and prolong it. So no, totally against any kind of system that is based on sect.

It should be written into the constitution of the country that under no circumstances should any official position, from an MP to a Minister to Speaker to PM to President to Commander of the Army to Judges, be decided or influenced by sectarian factors. Those elected and appointed into an official capacity should get there on due consideration of their merit and by the mandate of the people in general. Meaning, every citizen should have a say about every official capacity. Make all of Lebanon one electoral circle and give every citizen the right to vote for any Party or candidate they wish. Give the people the right to elect their President and Prime Minister, and even Parliament speaker if they want to. Make the cabinet subject to votes of confidence or no confidence from the representatives of the people. In short, give us our dues. Not yet another sectarian government body that will reap more of our taxes and do nothing for the people.

i agree. any new system must first, not increawe the number of total representatives [and if possible, reduce] and second, not tilt towards the sectarian system.

[Zayn]

The sectarian system is a 20th century relic that highlights the backwardness and prejudices of those times. Apparently only people who share the same religion as you are qualified to speak for you.

[sanfour]

i voted NO.i believe that we should move toward secularism. if you want
to clean your house, you don't move the garbage from one room to another
room...you should throw it in the garbage container.

[Iceberg]

It's an excellent idea IMHO, I guess that could be applied along with a new election rule based on proportionality.

[mickey117]

Originally Posted by sanfour

i voted NO.i believe that we should move toward secularism. if you want
to clean your house, you don't move the garbage from one room to another
room...you should throw it in the garbage container.

I'm gonna try to answer all your posts by answering this one....

Some times if you want to clean your house, it makes the job easier to group all the garbage in one room and then throw it out!

[gizmoshow]

Originally Posted by Souss

Good thread mickey.

If we are to have a senate, it should have equal representation for all sects. The idea is to de-sectarianize the Parliament, but to have another chamber where all sects have an equal say. So the number of Senators per sect would have to be the same. The question is, what are the sects that the State would recognize, i.e. are there ones other than the current ones, do you "lump" some together, and do you give seats for non-believers? Also, can we consider having senators by region vs by sect? By other criteria?

These are IMO the questions that we should be thinking about, as a national priority.

I agree, senate representation should be equal between all sects. It does not have to be a lot of representatives for each sect. It can be, 4 for each sect.

[Convergence]

Originally Posted by mickey117

Some times if you want to clean your house, it makes the job easier to group all the garbage in one room and then throw it out!

Nice one :D I agree.

In my opinion, a properly designed senate will serve as a good vehicle to abolish political sectarianism.

You have to remember, Lebanese people are not secular they are tribal and their tribe is their sect most of the time. So you can not one day just say... OK let us abolish sectarianism and do it overnight by passing some laws, since the Lebanese people will not vote in a secular manner.

If a new governmental system incorporating a senate is to be designed to cure Lebanon's sectarianism disease, it should be designed keeping in mind it is merely a mechanism to facilitate secularization of the Lebanese people at the grass roots level. At the same time it should provide Lebanon's diverse communities with a safety net against unbalanced or premature legislation that hurts minorities, and keep the balance between the secularization of the rest of state institutions and the grass roots Lebanese people.

Under these conditions I would support the creation of a senate. I don't know how such a senate and parliament would be structured, but I have many issues with the suggestion in the original post so I am against it as is.

[mehdi soldier]

i am against such a "senate".this is not a senate.itwould be a "house of sects" or "bayt el taifiyyeh".

who are we trying to fool?are we fooling ourselves?its becoming like children's game.do you intend in cleansing the parliament of sectarianism or the entire country?if you are only cleaning the mess from the parliament only to create a bigger mess for the country at large,then having such a senate is a waste of time and energy.no need for it!

also,the distribution of "senators" in different areas base on their confession is illogical.assuming a shia family exist in an entirely maronite village,would you make a senator out from that family?would the confessional distribution be based on a sect's presence in an area, or its number?if its based on numbers,would there be the need to first conduct a population census? what is the criteria to determine that a sect gets a senate seat in this or that area?such representation is needless.

[mickey117]

Originally Posted by mehdi soldier

i am against such a "senate".this is not a senate.itwould be a "house of sects" or "bayt el taifiyyeh".

who are we trying to fool?are we fooling ourselves?its becoming like children's game.do you intend in cleansing the parliament of sectarianism or the entire country?if you are only cleaning the mess from the parliament only to create a bigger mess for the country at large,then having such a senate is a waste of time and energy.no need for it!

also,the distribution of "senators" in different areas base on their confession is illogical.assuming a shia family exist in an entirely maronite village,would you make a senator out from that family?would the confessional distribution be based on a sect's presence in an area, or its number?if its based on numbers,would there be the need to first conduct a population census? what is the criteria to determine that a sect gets a senate seat in this or that area?such representation is needless.

If you read my first post carefully, you would have noticed that I divided the senate in a way that every sect gets representatives from all regions, the numbers are estimates from the current distribution in the parliament (every 4 Mps get one senator or so... with a few corrections here and there) So let's say you're a shiite from Zgharta el mtewleh in Koura, you can run for the Shite seat representing beirut, mount lebanon and north lebanon, and of course, shiites from all these regions are the ones who will vote for you, and no one else!

By the way, I have always thought that is veeeery unfair that me that a guy from Zahle gets to vote for 7 mps while a guy from bsharreh only gets to vote for 2!! It's not logic!! each person should either vote for 1 person or 128! in my proposal, each person would elect 1 senator and an entire parliament!

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Mehdi Soldier

i am against such a "senate".this is not a senate.itwould be a "house of sects" or "bayt el taifiyyeh".

who are we trying to fool?are we fooling ourselves?its becoming like children's game.do you intend in cleansing the parliament of sectarianism or the entire country?if you are only cleaning the mess from the parliament only to create a bigger mess for the country at large,then having such a senate is a waste of time and energy.no need for it!

Not surprising coming from someone who supported that a shia-centric non-secular party take over the government by force, i.e. through a coup in May 2008. Talk about creating a bigger mess! No buddy, if we are to change the system, it is with the objective of making it fair and harmonious, not to redistribute the roles of who oppresses and who is oppressed.

Originally Posted by Mehdi Soldier

also,the distribution of "senators" in different areas base on their confession is illogical.assuming a shia family exist in an entirely maronite village,would you make a senator out from that family?would the confessional distribution be based on a sect's presence in an area, or its number?if its based on numbers,would there be the need to first conduct a population census? what is the criteria to determine that a sect gets a senate seat in this or that area?such representation is needless.

If a Senate based on sectarian distribution is the chosen alternative:

1. It would be strictly based on sects and not regions or anything else. What this does is it structurally de-sectarianizes the political system except for the prerogatives given to the Senate, which would be restricted to sensitive issues such as war and peace, constitutional amendments, certain social issues, etc.

2. It would give equal representation for each sect. What this does is it creates a safety net whereby every sect has an equal say in matters that are considered sensitive. Again, war and peace, constitutional amendments, certain social issues, etc.