Elections 2009... What happened? Why? and how should we react!

[Jasper]

Originally Posted by Z VOICE

Hey Jasper...

If u read the two main parts of this thread you will see that we mentioned all the known reasons for these results. We can not say we did nothing wrong...
We could have at least monitored their preparations and acted accordingly. I bet that we would have acted differently if the reports (istitla3at) we were receiving showed us that we might lose. We knew they were preparing all they did but we did not even concentrate our campaign on that... anwy, what's done is done, and we are proud we did not use corrupted and twisted ways, but we have to admit we made mistakes otherwise we will never learn from them...

Regards...

Agreed. One of our biggest problems was that we believed our own hype. We thought the win was ours.
Sure with better preperations we could have won, but there were place were simply we couldn't have un less we played their game, thus losing what we are. Example: Zahle. We had to bring people from outside in order to face what they had prepared for us, which again is not somethign we're used to doing. So even though we lost, I'm actually proud of what we ahcieved, proving that we still got more popularity, despite everything they did,

[Z VOICE]

Originally Posted by Jasper

Agreed. One of our biggest problems was that we believed our own hype. We thought the win was ours.
Sure with better preperations we could have won, but there were place were simply we couldn't have un less we played their game, thus losing what we are. Example: Zahle. We had to bring people from outside in order to face what they had prepared for us, which again is not somethign we're used to doing. So even though we lost, I'm actually proud of what we ahcieved, proving that we still got more popularity, despite everything they did,

Exactly.. I totally agree, but I was just replying to your saying that we did nothing wrong, knowing that we did... and we should learn from our mistakes, otherwise we'll lose some more support next time,and more the time after that, until we're over...

Regards...

[sanabel]

We have ,as an opposition, to be proud from this result .The MP's of the FPM block had increased in number.They spend over 2 billion dollars (Saudi's money)with the help of the government in USA and Europe to get rid off GMA and FPM and to get the 2/3 of the parliament members to introduce a law to naturalize the Palestinians in Lebanon . They failed to get the number and to get rid off FPM ...So now we are a big player and importent player then ever in the ground ...And won't be a solution in any future governmemt without the big role of the FPM in this government....Hariri knows that and he is in trouble to go ahead with a government without the blessing of the FPM.

[The Jade]

Originally Posted by Z VOICE

Most importantly my friend is for us not to feel down... we should consider it as a wake up call! we all know we didn't do much in the last 4 years... the FPM has always been unique because it generated from the people and not just from our leaders! for 15 years we made the FPM possible! and then after our 2005 "tsunami" we sat on our asses and just watched our leaders act... Everyone of us should feel involved in the fight!

Anyway, we will discuss it in details later...
Oh and btw... I surely don't like the "akid akid akid" part in your last post ;)

Regards

This key sentence is the exact difference between a party and a movement.
A movement has no clearly defined structure, and most of its leaders are de-facto leaders (others are appointed).

A party is based on a very well defined structure with a very clear chain of command.

The FPM pre-2005 was a movement that acts and looks like one.
The FPM post-2005 became a party that acts like a movement, but whose facade looks like a party.

Originally Posted by Amirkani

You don't need to come up with elaborate solutions... the red part is enough if we re-learn how to do what we used to do best.

We used to do much with nothing. Now that we have a lot, we tend to do nothing.

Sometimes appointed (even elected) leaders are more hindrance than help... they weigh you down. Natural leaders are those who take the initiatives... they're the genuine ones. And there is one in most of us.

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The FPM should decide what it is, a party or a movement.

And that's the real problem.
Its leaders still treat it like a movement, while the supporters treat it like a party (they await orders)

[The Jade]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

You don't need everyone to understand. Everyone will never understand for you to be seeking everyone's understanding. You will be waiting in idle forever.

The only thing everyone will understand is "success". You succeed in attaining your goal, everyone will then understand and applaud you.

What is it specifically that you want to accomplish? What is your specific goal? It's got to be specific. Once you define your specific goal, put an implementation plan for it, get fixated on it (even if it takes decades) and just do it.

You don't need any leader's approval if the goal is part of their declared "vision". The problem with many is that they seek a leader's approval of their plan. That's when that leader starts weighing you down instead of helping you. Why? Because that leader understands from your request for his approval that you can't do it on your own and that you're asking him to do most of the work. Well, leaders give such stamp of approval to people they know and feel comfortable with or people with a proven track record or, unfortunately, even to people they personally "favor" and are trying to promote. How many of us fall into one of these categories? Not too many.

If you have an initiative, you don't need the leader's approval to start unless, as I said, you're expecting him to do a good chunk of the work.

Heck, on some initiatives I undertook, I received an explicit "disapproval" from the leader for my plans. I still went ahead with them saying I will take full personal responsibility for the failure of the initiative. Heck, how was that leader going to stop me if I wasn't asking anything of him? Well, he couldn't stop me. And the "disapproval" turned into a stamp of "approval and adoption" as the initiative started looking as if it was going to succeed.

Again, define your "specific" goal within the FPM overall vision. "Reforming FPM" or "fixing FPM" are too vague of a notion and they're not going to cut it. Get fixated on that goal, put a plan for your actions and stick to it.

FPM succeeded because of personal initiatives. We can't have 99% of FPM idle waiting for initiatives from the 1% in the leadership. Those initiatives might never come... or, if they come, they won't be enough.

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With all due respect, but this is a farm you're aiming for and not a party.

Yes, individual initiatives are important, but now that the FPM became an official party and an official player in Lebanon's politics you can't let anyone start something on his own without the approval of the party.

If some of ur ideas got a stamp of approval after being rejected, others could really hurt the party.
It's a risk that you shouldn't be willing to take.

Not to forget that by doing this you're only delaying the plan of organizing internal elections.
It's like you're telling people here, that FPM's elections aren't that important, so keep working as you were before and take the idea of elections out of ur heads.

Personally I prefer that anyone here with an initiative, should invest in pressuring the leadership to organize elections, and then present these ideas to the newly elected board.

Until then, the FPM will stay a farm, with a time teller instead of being a party based on a clock builder.

[GeorgeY]

Originally Posted by The Jade

This key sentence is the exact difference between a party and a movement.
A movement has no clearly defined structure, and most of its leaders are de-facto leaders (others are appointed).

A party is based on a very well defined structure with a very clear chain of command.

The FPM pre-2005 was a movement that acts and looks like one.
The FPM post-2005 became a party that acts like a movement, but whose facade looks like a party.




The FPM should decide what it is, a party or a movement.

And that's the real problem.
Its leaders still treat it like a movement, while the supporters treat it like a party (they await orders)

movements do have clearly defined everything makhass what u said. the difference btw a party and a movement is that a movement do not seek to be within the political governmet or parliment (they do not seek representation) whereas a party all it seeks is representation. that is why when parties begin they r called movement and then when they r represented they become party

Originally Posted by The Jade

With all due respect, but this is a farm you're aiming for and not a party.

Yes, individual initiatives are important, but now that the FPM became an official party and an official player in Lebanon's politics you can't let anyone start something on his own without the approval of the party.

If some of ur ideas got a stamp of approval after being rejected, others could really hurt the party.
It's a risk that you shouldn't be willing to take.

Not to forget that by doing this you're only delaying the plan of organizing internal elections.
It's like you're telling people here, that FPM's elections aren't that important, so keep working as you were before and take the idea of elections out of ur heads.

Personally I prefer that anyone here with an initiative, should invest in pressuring the leadership to organize elections, and then present these ideas to the newly elected board.

Until then, the FPM will stay a farm, with a time teller instead of being a party based on a clock builder.

i agree with u, without the farm stuff

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by The Jade

With all due respect, but this is a farm you're aiming for and not a party.

My aim is neither a farm nor a party. My aim is to serve my countrymen by trying to do what is best for them. When I can serve them through a farm, I will. And when I can serve them through a party, I will bring the farm's produce and give it to the party.

Originally Posted by The Jade

Yes, individual initiatives are important, but now that the FPM became an official party and an official player in Lebanon's politics you can't let anyone start something on his own without the approval of the party.

"Important" is an understatement in relation to individual initiatives.

All, without exception, what the "party" can today claim as major achievements started as an individual initiative. There were failures and successes in individual initiatives. The "party" adopted and took credit for the successes and made them part of its CV while the failures were never known by the public to be have been associated with FPM.

Originally Posted by The Jade

If some of ur ideas got a stamp of approval after being rejected, others could really hurt the party.

How can they hurt the party when they are my own initiatives and the party did not approve them or adopt them? They could hurt me if they fail while they could benefit the party if they succeed.

Unless you're assuming that FPM might take credit for a bad initiative that I might start individually. Let's see... if I decide to start a drug smuggling initiative, is FPM going to take credit for it in case it's successful?

Personal initiatives are just that... personal. Personal initiatives by FPMers were (and will be in most cases) "good" initiatives because of the personal character of individuals who join or support FPM. In the rare occasion when they turn out to be "bad", they will reflect on the individual not the party.

Originally Posted by The Jade

It's a risk that you shouldn't be willing to take.

There is no risk to the party... there is a risk to the individual. But then again, only risk-taking individuals are willing to make initiatives. It's a personal choice that sets 1 individual apart from others.

Originally Posted by The Jade

Not to forget that by doing this you're only delaying the plan of organizing internal elections.
It's like you're telling people here, that FPM's elections aren't that important, so keep working as you were before and take the idea of elections out of ur heads.

If your re-read my post, you will notice that I specifically said that individual initiatives are not a replacement to internal party organization or elections. These internal things are a different animal... very important but not nearly sufficient or as important as individual initiatives.

One effort does not cancel or eliminate the other. They can both combine to serve our aim of better serving our countrymen.

Originally Posted by The Jade

Personally I prefer that anyone here with an initiative, should invest in pressuring the leadership to organize elections, and then present these ideas to the newly elected board.

Don't you think that, sooner or later, one has to move from the phase of talking about good ideas to the phase of implementing them?

Who do you suppose can pressure the leadership? Assuming here that you what you mean "pressuring" falls short of "threatening" them! Here we have thousands of members in this forum with great ideas or initiatives... how many of them do you think can succeed in "pressuring" the leadership by talking? Maybe I can think of a couple individuals at the most who can apply "pressure" by talking, however, succeeding in getting what they want is a different story and not close to being guaranteed.

I mentioned in a previous post what types of individuals can have the leadership's ears.

I am also prescribing the course many of us could take to "pressure" the leadership and succeed at it while, at the same time, serving our country.

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[Libnene Qu7]

When you have people voting for the likes of N2oula Fattoush and Michel Fer3on, it's time to realize that Lebanon is hopeless. We should learn how to enjoy the chaotic filth that makes Lebanon so charming. Can you imagine us having a real country? Haha, ya right.

[The Jade]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

My aim is neither a farm nor a party. My aim is to serve my countrymen by trying to do what is best for them. When I can serve them through a farm, I will. And when I can serve them through a party, I will bring the farm's produce and give it to the party.

This is very nice and poetic. And everyone claims that he wants to help his countrymen.
This is not the problem we're facing. It's the way to get there that's annoying.

The aim of the FPM is to help their countrymen, but as long as it's a farm and a one man show it can never get there

"Important" is an understatement in relation to individual initiatives.

All, without exception, what the "party" can today claim as major achievements started as an individual initiative. There were failures and successes in individual initiatives. The "party" adopted and took credit for the successes and made them part of its CV while the failures were never known by the public to be have been associated with FPM.

How can they hurt the party when they are my own initiatives and the party did not approve them or adopt them? They could hurt me if they fail while they could benefit the party if they succeed.
Unless you're assuming that FPM might take credit for a bad initiative that I might start individually. Let's see... if I decide to start a drug smuggling initiative, is FPM going to take credit for it in case it's successful?

The problem with personal initiatives is that more often than not they stay personal because not enough people hear about them.

You'll have to work 100 times harder to be able to get to your goal.
Whereas if it's under a party's auspices, it's faster, easier and better organized since you'll have access to the party's resources.

Personal initiatives are just that... personal. Personal initiatives by FPMers were (and will be in most cases) "good" initiatives because of the personal character of individuals who join or support FPM. In the rare occasion when they turn out to be "bad", they will reflect on the individual not the party.

The problem now is that the FPM grew so quickly and so fast that a lot of bad apples have made their way into the very select supporters group.

And it's almost naive to say that whatever a guy does if it's a personal initiative and it turns bad it will reflect poorly on the person.
Since if a person affiliated with a party acts in a certain way, it's alway the party that gets the blame.

Other parties look for small mistakes like these to eat you during the 8 o'clock news and the media loves to help them get the message out.

I remember in 2005, some members here created the FPMM: Free Patriotic Media Monitor.
A great initiative and they were doing some great work.
At a certain moment the FPM decided not to be affiliated with them. They continued to work on their own for a certain time.
Now, the work these guys did reflected on the FPM (eventhough it was never affiliated to it) AND eventhough it was a great initiative, it was not supported by the party and no resources were offered to them.

Another idea, was The Alternative (the student magazine) that was funded by sponsors. The FPM decided to allocate the money for other services, and look at them. The LFs took over the student body while the FPM is completely lost.

There is no risk to the party... there is a risk to the individual. But then again, only risk-taking individuals are willing to make initiatives. It's a personal choice that sets 1 individual apart from others.

If your re-read my post, you will notice that I specifically said that individual initiatives are not a replacement to internal party organization or elections. These internal things are a different animal... very important but not nearly sufficient or as important as individual initiatives.

You don't have a party unless you organize internal elections.

And as I said it before, you're trying to show us that these elections are not as important as people think. While the FPM is suffering most because of its one man show and because of the lack of organization.

And here's a question for you. If Michel Aoun dies, what would happen to the FPM ?
Who will take over ?

One effort does not cancel or eliminate the other. They can both combine to serve our aim of better serving our countrymen.

Don't you think that, sooner or later, one has to move from the phase of talking about good ideas to the phase of implementing them?

Who do you suppose can pressure the leadership? Assuming here that you what you mean "pressuring" falls short of "threatening" them! Here we have thousands of members in this forum with great ideas or initiatives... how many of them do you think can succeed in "pressuring" the leadership by talking? Maybe I can think of a couple individuals at the most who can apply "pressure" by talking, however, succeeding in getting what they want is a different story and not close to being guaranteed.

An inside current could start doing something to pressure the leadership.
You want to consider it a threat so be it. A lot of people sacrificed their lives for this party and if it shall fall because ONE MAN decides that no elections should happen then I would understand that they would threaten the leadership.

Small pressure groups could start moving, boycotting meetings, suspending their support, suspending funding, organizing internal petitions, lobby with Aoun's aides to get them to make him change his mind, etc.

I mentioned in a previous post what types of individuals can have the leadership's ears.

I am also prescribing the course many of us could take to "pressure" the leadership and succeed at it while, at the same time, serving our country.

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[jamez29]

Originally Posted by The Jade

The aim of the FPM is to help their countrymen, but as long as it's a farm and a one man show it can never get there

well said
if 50% from the fpmers think like that all lebanon must be fpmers