advanced search
Contact Us tayyar.org
 
The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org
 



Notices
The Orange Room Discuss anything related to Lebanon, Lebanese Politics, Breaking News and Live Updates on Major Events related to Lebanon & the World

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#21 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
BOILER's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 7,664
Thanks: 5
Thanked 495 Times in 335 Posts
Last Online: 23 Hours Ago
Join Date: Sun Jan 2006
View BOILER's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Wain sarit aw2ef elRoum bilmazra3a wilmsaitbeh?
Rented forever...
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  (#22 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
taifoon's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 6,219
Thanks: 574
Thanked 635 Times in 369 Posts
Last Online: 22nd May 2009
Join Date: Fri Mar 2005
View taifoon's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by >Watani< View Post

لماذا لا نأخذ مثلاً
ABC
بالأشرفية أيضاً، هذه الأرض لمطرانية الروم وهي مقابل كنيسة وقبور مار متر! لقد تم إستئجار الأرض على مئة سنة من قبل رجل أعمال لبنانيّ
ستقول لي أن الأرض لم تكن كنيسة، صح ولكنها مقابل الكنسية والقبور! أيعقل؟
ستقول إنها أجار على 100 سنة وسوف يستردونها، والله يعيشنا تنشوف التجديد والتمديد
& Spiness
وهذه أيضاً الحائط على الحائط مع الكنيسة ذاتها وتمّ استئجارها من السعوديين لمئة عام
هم وحدهم الرجال ذو اللباس الأسود يملكون هذه العقارات ولهم السلطة الكاملة على الأرض لفعل ما يشاؤون! هم باعوا الديانة والمسيح منذ زمن طويل جداً. فبيع كنيسة وأملاك كانت سابقاً تعود للناس في عهد العثمانيين لا تهزّ لهم جفن
وحده الله سيحاسبهم في الآخرة
ABC is not a church, even if it overlooks a church. Many buildings overlook Houses of God, no problem.. Also it is very practical to have a shopping mall side by side or near a gathering place for worshipers: They pay their duties to God, and then quickly afterward they can pass by Mammon and satisfy him too..

So, al moutraniyeh may own lands and do whatever it sees financially fit with them. Houses of God can be considered as being only administered by them, but morally wise they are ultimately owned by the communities residents. It is for them they were ultimately built, let be for advanced therapeutic purposes, and consequently it is the people who should have the last say about those places.
Reply With Quote
  (#23 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Moderator
 
>Watani<'s Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 9,627
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,501 Times in 739 Posts
Last Online: 1 Minute Ago
Join Date: Wed Feb 2006
View >Watani<'s Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by december rain View Post
dear watani

the issue is not about the fact that it's a church or a monastery that is being destroyed to build a mall instead.... Think of it as a normal traditional, 400-year-old, world heritage house being destroyed.....

Does that help u to understand things and put them in their correct perspective ?

The "wa2f" or religious properties specifically the christian ones constitute an big percentage of lebanon's surface area.... These properties are very important in preserving at least part of the old lebanon.....the pre war lebanon.....beirut and all major cities are becoming stuffed like garbage cans.....modern buildings are eating up all major cities ......

I can talk about jounieh for example.....this once beautiful city, lost it's identity,.....u just have to look and compare old pictures with the new ones ........a big part of the few places that remain from the old jounieh are "wa2f" properties, because it is a known fact that the religious authorities in lebanon are almost forbidden to sell lands, very strict regulations exist in this respect, but unfortunately laws are being broken because the clergy are becoming more and more business and profit oriented .....

The same applies to achrafiyyeh......this place is characteristic of the old achrafiyyeh which lost a big part of its identity and plz i am not talking from a sectarian perspective here......

To make u understand things even better ... Think about european countries.....lets say germany for example.....in a town where u have a church or a monastery, it is very hard to get a permission to destroy these for the sake of building a mall ....and u know people there are not sectarian and mostly not religious but it's about the identity and traditional look of a certain place that needs to be preserved ......

No one would mind if this mall was built in achrafiyyeh on an empty piece of land......

I would also like to shed light on the environmental angle of this issue.....would u prefer an nice monastery with some green spaces and trees around or a modern mall with parking lots ??....knowing that green spaces in beirut in general are becoming virtually inexistent.....

I salute mr nicolas sehanoui for what he is doing, his interest in this issue is much appreciated.... He and this youth organization are saddened by what's happening to their town, they just couldn't sit tight and do nothing, so they decided to at least take a stand and voice their opinion hoping the religious authorities would just reconsider their hasty decision.....


أعتذر ولكن إن أخذت باعتبار ما تقوله عن الآثارات والبيئة، فلماذا لا يقف أحد من التيار الوطني الحرّ مع أهالي الجميزة؟
القصة لا تحتاج مبررّات فهي واضحة تماماً
أنا لست ضدّ الإضاءة على الموضوع، ولكن هناك عدّة اعتبارات وقانون الإنتخابات الحاليّ كافي بإظهار أن هذه الإنتخابات لن تكون سوى طائفية ولن يلعبوا إلاّ على الوتر الطائفي وهذا ليس التغيير الذي أطمح أنا إليه
أمّا بالنسبة للرجال ذات اللباس الأسود أشددّ وأؤكدّ أن وحدهم لديهم السلطة والقرار في هكذا أمور. إن مالك أيّ عقار يحقّ له التصرف به كما يشاء وكما يحلو له
وليس من شيء للجدل فيه
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to >Watani< For This Useful Post:
roch10452 (20th April 2009)
  (#24 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
BOILER's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 7,664
Thanks: 5
Thanked 495 Times in 335 Posts
Last Online: 23 Hours Ago
Join Date: Sun Jan 2006
View BOILER's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by >Watani< View Post


أعتذر ولكن إن أخذت باعتبار ما تقوله عن الآثارات والبيئة، فلماذا لا يقف أحد من التيار الوطني الحرّ مع أهالي الجميزة؟
القصة لا تحتاج مبررّات فهي واضحة تماماً
أنا لست ضدّ الإضاءة على الموضوع، ولكن هناك عدّة اعتبارات وقانون الإنتخابات الحاليّ كافي بإظهار أن هذه الإنتخابات لن تكون سوى طائفية ولن يلعبوا إلاّ على الوتر الطائفي وهذا ليس التغيير الذي أطمح أنا إليه
أمّا بالنسبة للرجال ذات اللباس الأسود أشددّ وأؤكدّ أن وحدهم لديهم السلطة والقرار في هكذا أمور. إن مالك أيّ عقار يحقّ له التصرف به كما يشاء وكما يحلو له
وليس من شيء للجدل فيه
And the meeting today in Gazire with kenaan is more than a proof.
The christian rights, and the desired balance to be reached aren't new stuff.
Kannan even said we are not ashamed of this, are you?
Reply With Quote
  (#25 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Moderator
 
>Watani<'s Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 9,627
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,501 Times in 739 Posts
Last Online: 1 Minute Ago
Join Date: Wed Feb 2006
View >Watani<'s Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by taifoon View Post
ABC is not a church, even if it overlooks a church. Many buildings overlook Houses of God, no problem.. Also it is very practical to have a shopping mall side by side or near a gathering place for worshipers: They pay their duties to God, and then quickly afterward they can pass by Mammon and satisfy him too..

So, al moutraniyeh may own lands and do whatever it sees financially fit with them. Houses of God can be considered as being only administered by them, but morally wise they are ultimately owned by the communities residents. It is for them they were ultimately built, let be for advanced therapeutic purposes, and consequently it is the people who should have the last say about those places.

صحيح، في الكاسليك كذلك الأمر، يمكنهم أن يذهبوا إلا الصلاة ومن ثم السهر
أنا لست ضدّ أن يستفيدوا، ولكن لديهم الكثير ليستفيدوا! هل نراهم يساعدون الفقراء وأبناء طائفتهم؟
كلا على العكس، هم يسلخونهم منذ الولادة حتى المماة، بعكس الطوائف الأخرى
وهنا أيضاً لا شيء للمجادلة فيه
ما فعلوه خلال الإحتلال العثماني بسرقة أراضي الشعب واستبدالها بكسرة خبز كافٍ لمعرفة كيف باعوا الله بالليرات الذهبية! وهل سيكونون أفضل من تلامذة المسيح؟
القضية البارزة اليوم واضحة عين الشمس وخصوصة لتعلق رجل أعمال سعوديّ بهذه الصفقة التجارية
Reply With Quote
  (#26 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Moderator
 
>Watani<'s Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 9,627
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,501 Times in 739 Posts
Last Online: 1 Minute Ago
Join Date: Wed Feb 2006
View >Watani<'s Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by boiler View Post
and the meeting today in gazire with kenaan is more than a proof.
The christian rights, and the desired balance to be reached aren't new stuff.
Kannan even said we are not ashamed of this, are you?

أنت تقارن مقاعد النواب المسيحية في المجلس النيابي بالوقوف عند عدم بيع كنيسة؟ يعني إذا كان التيار الوطني الحرّ سيغوص لهذه الدرجة في حماية حقوق المسيحيين، فليرتسم العماد عون مطراناً إذاً
أنا لست خجلة، بل أن ضدّ هذا الغوص مع هؤلاء الرجال الذين باعوا ديانتهم كاملاً، والإهتمام بأمور أهمّ بكثير كثير من أجل إعادة بناء الوطن على السكة الصحيحة
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to >Watani< For This Useful Post:
e.kid (20th April 2009)
  (#27 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
TripolySunni's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,065
Thanks: 338
Thanked 357 Times in 283 Posts
Last Online: 5 Days Ago
Join Date: Thu Jun 2008
View TripolySunni's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

First of all after I read the article It said that this Information is still not 100% approved or correct.
Secondly the Land belongs to The people who will decide if they want to carry out this deal or not and nobody is Forcing them.
Thirdly the MP N2oula Sa7nawi Didn't say anything against the deal he said that Achrafiyeh needs more Green areas which means he wants to demolish the church and create a Park Maybe.
Reply With Quote
  (#28 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
errorproof's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 273
Thanks: 13
Thanked 28 Times in 20 Posts
Last Online: 1 Day Ago
Join Date: Thu Jul 2006
View errorproof's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
I signed, eventhough I am a Muslim.
Same here ....
Reply With Quote
  (#29 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Moderator
 
December Rain's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 742
Thanks: 124
Thanked 245 Times in 147 Posts
Last Online: 1 Day Ago
Join Date: Sun Mar 2008
View December Rain's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by >Watani< View Post


أعتذر ولكن إن أخذت باعتبار ما تقوله عن الآثارات والبيئة، فلماذا لا يقف أحد من التيار الوطني الحرّ مع أهالي الجميزة؟
القصة لا تحتاج مبررّات فهي واضحة تماماً
أنا لست ضدّ الإضاءة على الموضوع، ولكن هناك عدّة اعتبارات وقانون الإنتخابات الحاليّ كافي بإظهار أن هذه الإنتخابات لن تكون سوى طائفية ولن يلعبوا إلاّ على الوتر الطائفي وهذا ليس التغيير الذي أطمح أنا إليه
أمّا بالنسبة للرجال ذات اللباس الأسود أشددّ وأؤكدّ أن وحدهم لديهم السلطة والقرار في هكذا أمور. إن مالك أيّ عقار يحقّ له التصرف به كما يشاء وكما يحلو له
وليس من شيء للجدل فيه
Concerning the Gemmayzeh issue, The FPM did take a stand, u just have to look up articles on Tayyar.org on this issue..... FPM clearly in all the articles written by its reporters backed the Gemmayzeh people 200%.....The question that should be asked is why the current MP's of Ashrafiyyeh didn't do anything about Gemmayzeh .... we didn't have deputies for Achrafiyyeh in the past 4 years so we cannot be held accountable.....

The elections will be sectarian par excellence , you are right about that. so u think that FPM should reduce itself to a sectarian party ?We are better than that .. Ma3leish, sma7ilna fiya hay.....so FPM shouldn't care about anything except the sectarian issues?

Due to the nature of our country it is natural to tackle sectarian issues specially before the elections, and i am not against it and it is necessary at this stage because we are not a secular state yet, but while doing so it is important to gradually introduce elements of a civilized modern state and caring for the environment is one of these elements...in most western countries these issues are essential in each party's agenda.... what would make us so different from other traditional parties if we don't ?

concerning the clergy, of course they are the owners of the monastery, no one is denying this fact, what we are doing is only voicing our opinion hoping that they would change their minds ... we are just telling them that their decision is wrong and we hope that they listen......

now by law they have the right to do as they like, no one is arguing about this fact but by principle i don't think that's the way things should be because i agree on what Taifoon previously said that their properties belong to the communities they represent and if they manage these properties wrongly their respective communities have the right to protest and be influencial....but sadly this is not the case.....
Aslan, where does all this money, lands, monasteries come from ??? isn't it from donations made by christian communities to the clergy ??? people made these donations, thinking that the clergy would manage them well but apparently this is not the case......


Quote:
وهذا ليس التغيير الذي أطمح أنا إليه
if that's the case then don't vote FPM...because point 8 of our electoral program says otherwise :

Quote:
حماية البيئة: إستثمار في صحّة المواطن واقتصاد الوطن


على رغم أهمّيّة البيئة في حياة المواطن وازدهار الوطن، ناصبتها حكومات ما بعد الطائف العداء، ما أدى إلى تعميم الفوضى البيئية في الماء والهواء والأودية والجبال، كما وكثرت التراخيص الإستنسابية للكسّارات والمرامل لصالح المحاسيب، وانقرضت المساحات الخضراء، عبر التوسّع العمرانيّ العشوائيّ، يضاف إلى هذا كلّه التقصير الفادح في مكافحة حرائق الغابات الموسميّة

إنّنا نؤمن بأنّ البيئة هي من مقوّمات الثروة الوطنيّة، ونضع في أساس مشروعنا تفعيل المؤسّسات المعنيّة وتجهيزها، وسنّ التشريعات البيئيّة الفعّالة وتطبيقها بحزم، واعتماد مخطّط تنظيميّ شامل يحدّد المناطق المحميّة بيئيًّا، ومناطق التوسّع العمرانيّ المتوازن، ومناطق الأنشطة الاقتصاديّة والسياحية المختلفة، وإطلاق برامج توعية بيئيّة للمواطنين، عبر وسائل الإعلام المختلفة، وإدراج الثقافة البيئيّة في برامج التربية والتعليم على مختلف المستويات، واعتبار الأنشطة البيئيّة أنشطة ذات منفعة عامّة
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to December Rain For This Useful Post:
taifoon (20th April 2009)
  (#30 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
taifoon's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 6,219
Thanks: 574
Thanked 635 Times in 369 Posts
Last Online: 22nd May 2009
Join Date: Fri Mar 2005
View taifoon's Photo Album
Default 20th April 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by >Watani< View Post

أنت تقارن مقاعد النواب المسيحية في المجلس النيابي بالوقوف عند عدم بيع كنيسة؟ يعني إذا كان التيار الوطني الحرّ سيغوص لهذه الدرجة في حماية حقوق المسيحيين، فليرتسم العماد عون مطراناً إذاً
أنا لست خجلة، بل أن ضدّ هذا الغوص مع هؤلاء الرجال الذين باعوا ديانتهم كاملاً، والإهتمام بأمور أهمّ بكثير كثير من أجل إعادة بناء الوطن على السكة الصحيحة
You do have a point, but we have already passed "the point of no return" in this, we're already coming .. Against the Saudi invasion, financial, political or ideological, people will stand firm, under the guise of a party or only driven by plain common sense and self preservation instinct. This has little to do with sectarianism or secularism. It's about halting and reversing the tide that Hariri father started and Siniora and son are sustaining. If this particular case is another manifestation of this, so be it, and i hope FPM will fight it as well, and on top of the roofs.

Now, if you ask: "what if that church was to be sold to a wealthy Italian businessman? Would you mind it as much? ".. My answer is: "Let's celebrate Diversity, no problem", but that's only me.

However, again, it's not me who should be asked, but Ashrafieh people. It is them who have regular rendez-vous with their deities in that place, not me, nor FPM as a party.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org The Orange Room Main Forums The Orange Room

Tags
achrafieh, church, saudis, sold


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Forums Directory