Church in Lassa

[TayyaRevolution]

Abu Zeinab : “ discussing national defense strategy is not discussing Hezbollah’s weapons”

iloubnan.info

September 15, 2008

BEIRUT - On Orange TV, Ghaleb Abu Zeinab, Hezbollah official said “we are supposed to discuss the national defense strategy and not Hezbollah’s weapons,” he said. “There is a big difference between the two.”

Abu Zeinab said that it is “illusionary” to think that discussing Hezbollah’s weapons will change internal balances.

Without naming him, Abu Zeinab warned former MP Fares Soueid, who is to hold a press conference today, not to implicate Hezbollah in the attempted bombing of yesterday near a church in Lassa, a village in the district of Jbeil.

He said that the Lebanese Forces know that neither Hezbollah nor the Free Patriotic Movement would be affected by the incident.

Abu Zeinab also said that Hezbollah agreed with FPM Leader MP Michel Aoun on how to handle the incident, adding that some want to implicate themselves in the matter.

“If you read what is published on the Lebanese Forces official website, you feel that there is a war on Lebanon, specifically against Michel Aoun,” he said.

[hannaalsayssa]

Originally Posted by chafic

I already answered that in my replies to fidelio.

why wouldn't the chruch issue and officail statement or a court case??????
u wonder?????
but who can blame the church leaders, when in the 80s they wanted to sell the kaslik university to saudi............who can blame them..
also when they were quiet when sousous cancelled good friday??? who can blame them .....

who can blame them when they kept quiet about houqouq al tefel them and their 14shbatt representatives in the govt up till date ????? who can blame them................

[chafic]

Originally Posted by fidelio

Both political parties did not engage in a problem-solving process to undermine the judicial system, they did it out of urgency and to diffuse the growing sectarian rift that some people are planting in Jbeil, in and around Lassa.
That's a intricate fact to this issue and i would prefer the sober realist approach than the long idealistic one in issues of immediate urgency like this particular one.

That's a very important part fidelio. You have enough trust in these two parties to assume that their intentions, in doing something that is in my opinion undermining for the state's authority, were good. I, on the other hand, am not very concerned about the intentions, but the process which I think is of prime importance.

Originally Posted by fidelio

Of course not, this is not textbook M.O. for solving land dispute and should not be adopted if any lawsuit was filed. But nothing of this sort happened here, thus the urgency and legitimacy of the way it was solved.

What worries me is adopting the same urgency and legitimacy arguments to solve issues in the same manner in different places; You know, urgency and legitimacy can hardly be quantified; For instance nobody knew about this Lassa thing until it emerged as news in the media.

Originally Posted by fidelio

I read fear mongering (something you abhor), and the issue was swiftly solved to put an end to that behavior. Mostly by LF and Kataeb. Soueid was also pretty busy.
Where's the harm in that? Or to ask the question differently, was the bigger harm curbed?

Was bigger harm curbed? That's exactly my question. Would settling issues in this tribal matter really curb harm, or actually cause more harm on the long term? (Of course, that's a minor issue, but let's say as a matter of principle)

Originally Posted by fidelio

Oh, afraid. Too afraid to file a lawsuit?

Exactly. Probably wanting to avoid being hassled.

Originally Posted by fidelio

And besides, if they ever want to file a lawsuit, what would that lawsuit be?

No idea. That's exactly why I was asking about more details about this, again very minor issue.

Originally Posted by fidelio

He could at least announce the urgency to expedite the lawsuits against media outlets such as Shiraa and Mustaqbal in the same way he did with NTV. There's libel and defamation in both cases.
Nothing odd in that?

Are the cases of Shiraa, Mustaqbal and NTV legally similar?
Did Najjar really expedite the lawsuit against NTV? And is doing so within his prerogatives?

Originally Posted by fidelio

Some, (if not all) ministers should not be biased. Especially when lady justice should not lose her virginity. If he's the gentleman he seems to be, maybe he should take her out of the harem.
It is not professional of him to be biased chafic, there's something to look at.

It's not professional for him to be biased indoing his job as a minister (that's were scrutiny must apply), but I don't really see the problem with him having a certain political opinion.

[tony3834]

Hi
" ان عمر الكنيسة هو حوالي المئتي سنة، وقد بنتها البطريركية المارونية بعدما اشترت الأرض" يروي شربل سلامة وهو المقيم في يانوح المجاورة للاسا، وأحد المطالبين باسترداد الكنيسة.
ويضيف شربل " لقد بدأت القصة في سنة 2001 حيث تم الاستيلاء على الكنيسة وقد وضع في داخلها السجاد والمصحف، ولكن سرعان ما تحركنا وبعد تدخلات ومشاكل تم اخلاءها وقد وضعت لفترة معينة تحت حماية الجيش على أن يعمد المطران الى تأمين أبواب و شبابيك لاغلاقها".

أما اليوم ومنذ حوالي شهر أتى الشيخ محمد العيتاني من لاسا بأبواب حديدية وأغلق الكنيسة بعدما حولها الى مسجد.
Just a question, how poor is the maronite church that it was unable to put windows and doors to its church for over 7 years???
i think all those worried about the right of the christians, and that the batrak is boeing marginalized to have a collection and send him some money, maybe he is hungry and that's why he does not have the strength to protect his people.
Thanks

[chafic]

Originally Posted by fidelio

chafic, the ISF can't enforce without a court order, a court order can't be issued without a trial and a trial can't issue a verdict if there's no lawsuit filed to start with...

Basically, no one asked for the rule of court/state/dawle/nizam or whatever.

The maronite church is probably the most moral person with issues of land disputes with individuals and they rarely if not never ask for the rule of law.

We agree on that. So no one asked the rule of court/state/dawle/nizam, but did anyone ask Hezbollah and FPM? And if that happened, shouldn't they have, as ordinary citizens like all of us (but also part of the government and the parliament), transferred the case to the ourt/state/dawle/nizam which they should be building?

[Venom]

Originally Posted by tony3834

Hi
" ان عمر الكنيسة هو حوالي المئتي سنة، وقد بنتها البطريركية المارونية بعدما اشترت الأرض" يروي شربل سلامة وهو المقيم في يانوح المجاورة للاسا، وأحد المطالبين باسترداد الكنيسة.
ويضيف شربل " لقد بدأت القصة في سنة 2001 حيث تم الاستيلاء على الكنيسة وقد وضع في داخلها السجاد والمصحف، ولكن سرعان ما تحركنا وبعد تدخلات ومشاكل تم اخلاءها وقد وضعت لفترة معينة تحت حماية الجيش على أن يعمد المطران الى تأمين أبواب و شبابيك لاغلاقها".

أما اليوم ومنذ حوالي شهر أتى الشيخ محمد العيتاني من لاسا بأبواب حديدية وأغلق الكنيسة بعدما حولها الى مسجد.
Just a question, how poor is the maronite church that it was unable to put windows and doors to its church for over 7 years???
i think all those worried about the right of the christians, and that the batrak is boeing marginalized to have a collection and send him some money, maybe he is hungry and that's why he does not have the strength to protect his people.
Thanks

[IMG]http://www.********************/UserFiles/Image/pictures-inside/lassa-church550.jpg[/IMG]

So true , and now they are blaming GMA for solving this dispute about it!!!

What did the Maronite Church do the Christians in the Mountains? Jumblat and his gang always visit this Patriarch...Nothing...natamana and the regular BS!

[hannaalsayssa]

Originally Posted by tony3834

Hi
" ان عمر الكنيسة هو حوالي المئتي سنة، وقد بنتها البطريركية المارونية بعدما اشترت الأرض" يروي شربل سلامة وهو المقيم في يانوح المجاورة للاسا، وأحد المطالبين باسترداد الكنيسة.
ويضيف شربل " لقد بدأت القصة في سنة 2001 حيث تم الاستيلاء على الكنيسة وقد وضع في داخلها السجاد والمصحف، ولكن سرعان ما تحركنا وبعد تدخلات ومشاكل تم اخلاءها وقد وضعت لفترة معينة تحت حماية الجيش على أن يعمد المطران الى تأمين أبواب و شبابيك لاغلاقها".

أما اليوم ومنذ حوالي شهر أتى الشيخ محمد العيتاني من لاسا بأبواب حديدية وأغلق الكنيسة بعدما حولها الى مسجد.
Just a question, how poor is the maronite church that it was unable to put windows and doors to its church for over 7 years???
i think all those worried about the right of the christians, and that the batrak is boeing marginalized to have a collection and send him some money, maybe he is hungry and that's why he does not have the strength to protect his people.
Thanks

wlek ya toni, as if u do not know the answer
the batrak is busy recieving 14shbatt and running elections.....
he gave up his spiritual job as a unifier for the sect a long time ago him and most of the bishops....
what can one say........but feel sad......

how a batrak goes to wj and accepts that the churches are still destroyed ??? how??????

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by chafic

What do Hezbollah and FPM have to do with it? Shouldn't it be the state's responsibility to settle such issues, or are we totally conceding to all aspects of a tribal society?

Ya zalami ma adya' 3aynak. It's election time and a church. What better rewards should one hope for than those of the temporal and the ecclesiastical worlds in one beautifully calculated move?
Kama fi L sama' Kazalika 3ala L ard.

[fidelio]

Originally Posted by chafic

That's a very important part fidelio. You have enough trust in these two parties to assume that their intentions, in doing something that is in my opinion undermining for the state's authority, were good. I, on the other hand, am not very concerned about the intentions, but the process which I think is of prime importance.




What worries me is adopting the same urgency and legitimacy arguments to solve issues in the same manner in different places; You know, urgency and legitimacy can hardly be quantified; For instance nobody knew about this Lassa thing until it emerged as news in the media.

It is not only a matter of trust, that subjective feeling has nothing to do with how i regard this particular issue. Fact is that fear mongering and sectarian flames were being fed, Soueid will probably show us a sample today. Another fact is that two political parties solved the issue and no one has any right to claim anymore, and the fear mongering is going to fade away. At least for now. There's the urgency and legitimacy right there, in facts.

Originally Posted by chafic

Was bigger harm curbed? That's exactly my question. Would settling issues in this tribal matter really curb harm, or actually cause more harm on the long term? (Of course, that's a minor issue, but let's say as a matter of principle)

Again, i would have certainly preferred that this issue of land dispute be solved through the judicial channels, but if no lawsuit was filed, no one claimed his right, AND the dispute is in danger of turing into a politically motivated sectarian unrest, i would settle for the realism of FPM, Hezbollah, Shiite council and Maronite church. For the time being.

Originally Posted by chafic

Exactly. Probably wanting to avoid being hassled.

The one that should claim is the Maronite church. And i don't think they would allow LF and Kataeb politicians to use this issue in the skewered way they did if the Maronite church was in danger of being hassled.

Originally Posted by chafic

Are the cases of Shiraa, Mustaqbal and NTV legally similar?
Did Najjar really expedite the lawsuit against NTV? And is doing so within his prerogatives?

All cases are cases of libel and defamation, the difference is that Khashan (mustaqbal) and the editor in-chief of Shiraa did not show to court and even after the court issued a warning, it is yet to bring them to face trial. Mind you, Khashan and that dude are well known to be dwelling in Qoraytem, visiting mini-hariri and appearing on FTV.
ISF? no, they're monitoring parking meters.
The lawsuit against NTV was clearly expedited during the judicial holiday, any lawyer would tell you that they broke a record in legal cases. If this happened without the minister's knowledge or approval, he should at lease ask for a "fair" and fast trial for similar cases or he should resign.

Originally Posted by chafic

It's not professional for him to be biased indoing his job as a minister (that's were scrutiny must apply), but I don't really see the problem with him having a certain political opinion.

Basically, all justice ministers have left their job for the ministry director (pro-hariri), and settled for a political role. But let's entertain Najjar's version of the truth and agree that he wants reform and is able to withstand scrutiny.
His record with media lawsuits is nothing to be proud of, neither are his statements about the issue at hand. I would have settled for at least a political stance.

[LeBaNeSeCiTiZeN]

علّق منسّق الأمانة العامة لقوى 14 آذار فارس سعيد على حادثة كنيسة لاسا، لافتا الى وجود مخاوف من فتنة شيعية - مسيحية في قضاء جبيل.
وأوضح سعيد في مؤتمر صحافي ان كنيسة السيدة في لاسا هي كنيسة خاصة وتابعة للبطريركية المارونية وهي تابعة الآن لمطرانية كسروان، مستنكراً طلب الأجهزة الأمنية اللبنانية من كاهن الرعية عدم إقامة القداس بسبب وجود قنابل مزروعة وتهديدات بالخطر.
وشرح سعيد ان الكنيسة القديمة مملوكة للبطريركية منذ العام 1863 وقد وضع شيخ من "حزب الله" داخلها قرآن وسجادة في العام 2001، عندها عقدت اجتماعات وتم الاتفاق وبحضور المطران انطوان العنداري وقتذاك أن ينسحب الشيخ من الكنيسة وهكذا حصل، إلا أن الإعتداء تكرر في العام 2007 واعتبروا أن الكنيسة كانت مصلى لآل حمادة في حين اذا استندنا إلى المراجع القانونية نرى أن الكنيسة في القانون ممسوحة ككنيسة".
ورأى ان موضوع إعطاء المفتاح لأحد التيارات هو مرفوض رفضاً باتاً، لأن المسيحيين ليسوا بحاجة الى زعيم سياسي لكي يعيد لهم كنائسهم، مشيراً إلى أنه إذا أراد "حزب الله" أن يعيد الكنيسة فعناوين المطارنة في المنطقة معروفة، وبالتالي "نرفض أن يكون هناك وسيطاً يسمح لنا بالدخول الى الكنيسة". وقال: "المشكلة ليست بوساطة "حزب الله" أو النائب ميشال عون ولكن بتسليم المفتاح للمكان غير المناسب إذ ان هناك مطرانا والكنيسة لها آباء ومن يدعي أبوة الكنيسة هو وحده البطريرك الماروني".