The Christians Since Sfeir Became the Patriarch

[needfortruth]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

You shouldn't give up that easily.

For example, a large segment of the Shiites was leaning towards leftist/centrist ideologies before 1982, the communists and the real Amal (Moussa Sader) had far greater support than Islamist ideologies that only developed in the mid 80's.

It took time, effort and dedication for Hezbollah to build itself among its community. If FPM puts 50% of the same towards its secular agenda then it could do wonders.

How do you intend on helping FPM in its secular mission? I am sure they could have used your vote couple of months ago. And if you have good ideas, let's hear them.

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Amirkani,

It's about the overall image.

When we see the media focusing on FPM's lobbying of the Christian displaced, the Christian lands getting bought, the Christian representation in public service, the Christian votes in electoral laws, the Christian this and the Christian that... it does set a pattern.

That's it.

I understand though that the christians needed to hear a strong voice defending them after Taef and the syrian occupation because they were feeling hopeless. FPM's lobbying can be construed as the first step to take in order to pave the way for secularism. I mean restoring the rights of each community in order to fight the lack of confidence between the different communities etc.

The problem is that this aim was not ... clearly understood.

Let's take into consideration the question of the christian displaced. It's not purely a christian rights issue. Well it's a christian rights issue but a lebanese social issue too. The displaced must recover their rights and we have to recreate the diversity that existed before in some areas. However, we haven't heard anything about the necessity to recreate the diversity in some lebanese areas. We were only talking about the christian displaced rights.

Is it because of a bad communication or rather because of our paradoxical position ?

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Amirkani,

It's about the overall image.

The overall image and perception used to be a lot worse before FPM. For example, it used to be that of "Berbara to Kfarchima" and that of "Christian security above all other consideration". Today it's an image of Christians being equals, not superiors.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

When we see the media focusing on FPM's lobbying of the Christian displaced,

Lobbying for the displaced is lobbying for "rights" which is compatible with secularism.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

the Christian lands getting bought,

Lobbying against selling land to foreign entities is lobbying against foreign entities changing the nature of Lebanese society... it's lobbying for a national cause.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

the Christian representation in public service, the Christian votes in electoral laws,

It's lobbying for equal rights and good representation... I don't see why it should be perceived as an anti-secular effort.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

the Christian this and the Christian that... it does set a pattern.

It is a pattern... because it was preceded by a long pattern of deliberate marginalization of a portion of our society. Once the major effects of that marginalization are redressed, you won't see that pattern anymore.

A last note. It's a political fact that the first major wave of secularism proponents will have to come mostly from the Christian community (and FPM is that major wave) with the critical mass achieved only when a majority of Muslims join in.

Any different scenario for instituting secularism is pure hallucination.

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[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

1998 marked the year when a law proposal has been advanced for optional secular civil status, that IMO represents the biggest attempt towards secularism in recent Lebanese history.

I would like to see what could FPM do about reviving that and how it could lobby for the idea amongst the different communities.

True and FPM supported it fully and still supports it fully. And if any party is going to dare to re-introduce it, it will be FPM.

As for the timing, FPM is not going to do it while it feels it will be counterproductive when the likes of Batrak and LF, whose powers depend of sectarianism, will use it to further instill the wrong fears in the souls of Christians and scare them away from secularism.

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[vicking]

Let's be honest now. Secularism is now frozen.
The society is now not ready for secularism.. and especially not the Christian.

There is a VERY CLEAR attack on the Christian at all levels.. calling for secularism at this stage is not possible.

Secularism should happen slowly when everyone feels safe and represented.

FPM should officially suspend secularism for the time being.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by needfortruth

How do you intend on helping FPM in its secular mission? I am sure they could have used your vote couple of months ago. And if you have good ideas, let's hear them.

I intend on typing on this forum just like the rest of you guys

[needfortruth]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

I intend on typing on this forum just like the rest of you guys

Is it safe to assume all talk but no action?

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by needfortruth

Is it safe to assume all talk but no action?

Not talk but typing, something which you should know

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

The overall image and perception used to be a lot worse before FPM. For example, it used to be that of "Berbara to Kfarchima" and that of "Christian security above all other consideration". Today it's an image of Christians being equals, not superiors.

Is it because of FPM or because of the Christian demise since the end of the war?

Originally Posted by Amirkani

Lobbying for the displaced is lobbying for "rights" which is compatible with secularism.

Lobbying against selling land to foreign entities is lobbying against foreign entities changing the nature of Lebanese society... it's lobbying for a national cause.

It's lobbying for equal rights and good representation... I don't see why it should be perceived as an anti-secular effort.

Not if it is packaged under a Christian umbrella.. Remember this.

Originally Posted by Amirkani

It is a pattern... because it was preceded by a long pattern of deliberate marginalization of a portion of our society. Once the major effects of that marginalization are redressed, you won't see that pattern anymore.

I am not dismissing the marginalization, it is the way it has been dealt with that I criticize.

Originally Posted by Amirkani

A last note. It's a political fact that the first major wave of secularism proponents will have to come mostly from the Christian community (and FPM is that major wave) with the critical mass achieved only when a majority of Muslims join in.

Any different scenario for instituting secularism is pure hallucination.

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That's a good scenario which is obviously not as simple.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

True and FPM supported it fully and still supports it fully. And if any party is going to dare to re-introduce it, it will be FPM.

As for the timing, FPM is not going to do it while it feels it will be counterproductive when the likes of Batrak and LF, whose powers depend of sectarianism, will use it to further instill the wrong fears in the souls of Christians and scare them away from secularism.

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So what's being done meantime in order to reach that stage?