Christian Rights! what does it mean?

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Salome

Why did you leave then in first place? If you dont mind the bombs as you say...or is it this usual sentiment I hear, when I have enough money or max when am pensioner I will move back to Lebanon for good? You cant really blame those who left or will leave because they want to live a normal life.

If you make the decision to leave and never return, then don't come nagging about decreasing and bragging about your relatives leaving.

And since you're asking, no I didn't leave because of the bombs and I certainly am not moving back when I rot.

Take some lessons from the people of the south and watch how they go back under the bombing you'll get a deeper insight into our mentality which is very different to that of many. We know that war is coming, yet we're building our homes. And if they collapse, we're gonna build them again. We don't sell land, we buy. People might not have money to eat, but they would die and not sell their land. Call it being stubborn, call it being crazy, that's how we run and that's what we teach our kids.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

If you make the decision to leave and never return, then don't come nagging about decreasing and bragging about your relatives leaving.

And since you're asking, no I didn't leave because of the bombs and I certainly am not moving back when I rot.

Take some lessons from the people of the south and watch how they go back under the bombing you'll get a deeper insight into our mentality which is very different to that of many. We know that war is coming, yet we're building our homes. And if they collapse, we're gonna build them again. We don't sell land, we buy. People might not have money to eat, but they would die and not sell their land. Call it being stubborn, call it being crazy, that's how we run and that's what we teach our kids.

Thats all great principles and maybe I would do the same if it concerns me only. But I wont risk the life of others.
Our friends' home was destroyed too along with their beautiful olive grove, but I dont blame them if they dont want to move back and risk their little kids' life.

[shadow1]

Since none of our christian leaders is game enough to spell it out to you and they all have to resort to prevarications, obfuscations, euphemisms and innuendos, I'll tell you exactly what Christian rights mean.
First of all it is NOT about having privileges as if we are a cut above humanity when after all how many christians hold these positions compared to the number of christians in the country? And how many beneficiaries are there in the ranks of any particular sect when one position shifts from one sect to another, unless we follow Ahmad As3ad adage that "Kamel is learning for all of you so why do you need schools?".

What Christian rights mean basically is the right to have enough say in government, real power that is, not power granted by Hizbullah or FM, to make it impossible to pass laws making the christians Dhimmis or second class citizens as is the case in practically all the arab countries from the ocean to the gulf.

It's the right to exist freely in that accursed country, the right to build a house knowing that it wont be taking away from you one day because you are now a minority.

It's the right to live according to your own culture and customs and not those of the countries that have the most influence on those who share the same land with you.

One more general director here, one less there wont make any difference. It all boils down the right to be free and not punished till the end of time for what the crusaders did a 1000 years ago.

You must also learn that lebanese society is a hypocritical society and hypocrisy feeds off deception.

[LubnanALkawi]

Originally Posted by Dark Angel

go read the constitution.

if the constitution brokers power based on a sectarian divide, you have two options to proceed forward, an all out revolution, or a gradual path to go from a sectarian state to a secular one. the Christian rights are our gate into governing, the gate without which we will not be able to pave the way from sectarianism to secularism.

if you have a better way, please share with us. until then, we live in a sectarian state with a sectarian constitution, a state in which Christians have been cast outs, having no real say say in determining their own future.

Christian rights are what's missing to create some kind of equilibrium in terms of rights between the different constituants who make the Lebanese fabric. this should be a trivial matter.

the fact is nobody will come and say here take your rights just look what happened in the past when Muslims were calling for their rights, Chamoun refused everything what Muslims called for and it ended up with 1958 then later on with 1975 of course with the help of some foreign aids!

and just look where the Christian are today..
they are weak because they don't have any foreign aid like before they are divided between east and west unlike the Muslims they have their aids from two huge countries! (KSA & Iran)
that's the reality of the Marounites in Lebanon today...

the other side would never agree on giving back the power to the president!
it just does not work like this and it never did and never will!

if the Marounites wants to be powerful again they have to find a foreign aid.
today the foreign aid to the Marounite are through the Muslim alliances in fact this is weakening the Marounites even more.

i personally believe that the cycle of calling for the Muslim/Christian rights will never end if we keep calling for those things.
I can assure you many Muslims from all the sects feel they are abandon even the Sunnist feel this way and believing that the other sects are more powerful what I am trying to say here that those rights never end.
Equality would never work on those bases you are giving Lebanon only three false identity which is the Marounites, Sunnist and Chiaa what about the other sects? how can we call it equality between all the sects when you are abandoning many minorities like the Aalawite, Armenian, Orthodox etc im sure our system is not based on majority in some way because as far as i know the Marounites are not majority but still they have most MP in the parliament

this tells us only one thing that our system is based on First Class citizen, second Class citizen, Third Class citizen and sh*it Class citizen!

i believe to move forward to a more civilized country we have to forget about so called sect rights because those things calls only for division and more division!

the power should be given to the Parliament! and that's what we should call for! because anything between the three bigheads will make more division in this country

of course with a good election law that suit the country!

[LubnanALkawi]

Originally Posted by sev

well on the armenian rights, like getting our seats back in beirut..

we are already diminishing in number big time in lebanon.I dont think in future we can get ourselves a single MP Either. We are the most sect whose people leave this country..
In the past there used to be alot of armenians. in AUH doctors were forced to study armenians, because most nurses were armenians. lebanese football had looooots of armenians.and so on...
now none r in the country..all left.

I dont know what rights we gonna ask. I think our rights will be less then what it is now in future.


Most of cousins is in los angeles, and my family is plannin to move there as well.

do you think if the armenian/tachnag get their seat back in beirut the Armenian will stop leaving the country?

when FPM/LF/Kataeb etc calls for the christian rights do you feel like you are being part of all this? what im trying to say if the marounite president gets more power would you as armenian get anything from all this?

[ForeverOrange]

What does christian rights mean?

simply put, it means having ministers who represent christians and not Saudi Oger employees!

once you understand that ya lubnanwahhabielkawi, then you will understand what the christians are asking for!

[Abou Sandal]

Maybe that in order to make the debate a little more fruitful, we should start by drawing a clear line between 2 different aspects:

1- Christians civic rights.
2- Christians political rights.

Political rights are essential to get, in order to evolve in a community or a nation. They also mean nothing, and would lead nowhere, in a State where civic rights is not an option.

And the problem is, that in Lebanon, and due to the Mafia state of the State, no community and no individual feels like he is getting his rights.

This is somehow true.

But make no mistake by throwing it on the shoulders of other communities, because the reality is, that those who hold the keys, are not always the communities or the citizens, but the Mafia that rules them, and that have a tight grip over their sovereignty.

And all those Mafia usually came in, under the banner of "Saviors of the sect", and got a grip on power Via the political rights granted by the constitution, not to citizens, but to communities.(In the Lebanese constitution, the sect is what the citizen is in liberal democracy's constitutions...All we need to do is to replace the word "sect" by the word "citizen", and we would have a fairly good text)

So to get back to the topic, when GMA asks for the so-called "Christian rights", he is legitimately, somehow using the same technically legal argument that the Mafia used to get a grip on all source of power in the country,...but with an adverse goal, which is to try to reverse part of the present effects, and introduce in the State, and for the first time from long time ago, Mafia free elements that might plant the seeds of a struggle, for a clean and non corrupt Mafia free State.

So the way i can picture it for now, is that GMA's struggle for "Christian political rights" is in fact the first step in his fight to regain the Lebanese citizen's rights, by taking away from the Mafia, the power that it beholds.

[LubnanALkawi]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Maybe that in order to make the debate a little more fruitful, we should start by drawing a clear line between 2 different aspects:

1- Christians civic rights.
2- Christians political rights.

Political rights are essential to get, in order to evolve in a community or a nation. They also mean nothing, and would lead nowhere, in a State where civic rights is not an option.

And the problem is, that in Lebanon, and due to the Mafia state of the State, no community and no individual feels like he is getting his rights.

This is somehow true.

But make no mistake by throwing it on the shoulders of other communities, because the reality is, that those who hold the keys, are not always the communities or the citizens, but the Mafia that rules them, and that have a tight grip over their sovereignty.

And all those Mafia usually came in, under the banner of "Saviors of the sect", and got a grip on power Via the political rights granted by the constitution, not to citizens, but to communities.(In the Lebanese constitution, the sect is what the citizen is in liberal democracy's constitutions...All we need to do is to replace the word "sect" by the word "citizen", and we would have a fairly good text)

So to get back to the topic, when GMA asks for the so-called "Christian rights", he is legitimately, somehow using the same technically legal argument that the Mafia used to get a grip on all source of power in the country,...but with an adverse goal, which is to try to reverse part of the present effects, and introduce in the State, and for the first time from long time ago, Mafia free elements that might plant the seeds of a struggle, for a clean and non corrupt Mafia free State.

So the way i can picture it for now, is that GMA's struggle for "Christian political rights" is in fact the first step in his fight to regain the Lebanese citizen's rights, by taking away from the Mafia, the power that it beholds.

what if you are wrong what if aoun is being part of this dirty game today?
using their dirty weapon means thats who ever use this weapon is dirty or will become one of them!

you seems always to blame it on the other side while you dont see those who you support what they are doing and what game they are playing!

our problem is this sectarian speech everybody is using this is what keep the mafia ruling your country this what leads to those Mafiosos to win elections

sectarianism is what makes people vote for those who stole their money!

there is no such thing as christians civic rights and christians political rights in Lebanon because you already have them!

what you are asking for have nothing to do with christian rights etc!
you are simply asking for more political power as marounite and thats all!

now the question is why do you think it is your rights?

year after year the population of muslims is growing in Lebanon what will you do after 15 years?

if we want civic rights we have to start from asking for civic rights and not from sect right!

asking for sect rights dont have any ending you will always feel like you dont have enough of your rights...

FPM are saying that the sunni are ruling the country but i can tell you thats not what the sunnist feels... same thing goes for others!

[LubnanALkawi]

Originally Posted by ForeverOrange

What does christian rights mean?

simply put, it means having ministers who represent christians and not Saudi Oger employees!

once you understand that ya lubnanwahhabielkawi, then you will understand what the christians are asking for!

well if some sold them self to the saudis and to the iranians it has nothing to do with christian rights it have to do with some people who are selling them self to the devil!

your first problem is with the marounites them self as a marounites...

you can call me what ever you want i dont care!
i know how angry those questions make you feel! you have to live with it
im just simply saying what you are asking for have nothing to do with christian rights!

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by shadow1

Since none of our christian leaders is game enough to spell it out to you and they all have to resort to prevarications, obfuscations, euphemisms and innuendos, I'll tell you exactly what Christian rights mean.
First of all it is NOT about having privileges as if we are a cut above humanity when after all how many christians hold these positions compared to the number of christians in the country? And how many beneficiaries are there in the ranks of any particular sect when one position shifts from one sect to another, unless we follow Ahmad As3ad adage that "Kamel is learning for all of you so why do you need schools?".

What Christian rights mean basically is the right to have enough say in government, real power that is, not power granted by Hizbullah or FM, to make it impossible to pass laws making the christians Dhimmis or second class citizens as is the case in practically all the arab countries from the ocean to the gulf.

The only country where you're not second class citizens is Lebanon. We've always been zero class citizens, it's only recently that we've emerged as citizens in our own country, and in Iran of course. I feel for you.

It's the right to exist freely in that accursed country, the right to build a house knowing that it wont be taking away from you one day because you are now a minority.

Building a home and knowing that it won't be taken away from you is closer to dreams than it is to reality. There are no guarantees with homes in Lebanon. When we build homes, we should always be prepared to loose them any minute. To build or not to build... that is the question...

It's the right to live according to your own culture and customs and not those of the countries that have the most influence on those who share the same land with you.

Culture and customs... What are those anyway?

One more general director here, one less there wont make any difference. It all boils down the right to be free and not punished till the end of time for what the crusaders did a 1000 years ago.

Those who carry crusader blood aren't gonna punish anyone for the wrongs of the crusades lol. We can't hide the sun with one finger.

You must also learn that lebanese society is a hypocritical society and hypocrisy feeds off deception.

That we all are aware of.