In case of a referendum, would you agree to give the refugees residence permits?

[Anny]

Originally Posted by vicking

Everyone evil could benefi from Palestinian having a residence permit or citizenship. By order :
1/ Israel : Now Israel will be releived by this problem. Finally they have a life in Lebanon and with time their motivation to return will no longer exist.

2/ Saudi Arabia : Sunni presence is re-enforcing

3/ USA/Europe : In the long run, outnumbered Christian, will be pushed to leave the country like in ALL other Arab countries. Peace with Israel will be easier, each one having his land

Biggest loosers will be the Christian then the Shiaa.
Our fathers fought in 1975 against this scheme, we will do it again today and our children again tomorrow. Lebanon is our second religion.

It will be a big lost for Iran and Syria'S government as well because Shiaas will be a big minority in the region. And thats why I belive Shiaas and Christians in ALL the Middle East should fight this idea of having only Sunnies countries in the Middle East. Thats why in fact I always hated Bashir Gemayel just because he was with Israelies at the time he should have been more smart than that and understood the christian futur problem with Kessinger plan for all the christians in the middle east. Geagea along with Amine Gemayel have loading money in their pockets from the US and Israel to make work this plan. Saudies are helping alot in this to get rid of Shiaas and christians and to settle down Palestinians in Lebanon. And I belive that is why Harriri father was killed and Amine Gemayel was killed, some people are against this plan.

[Diabolo_7]

Originally Posted by elhorr

اقامة مؤقتة كماذا ؟ بأي صفة ؟
اذا كانو ا بصفة لاجئين فهم مقيمين بهذه الصفة و عندها لا داعي للسؤال
لكن اذا كانوا بصفة مواطنين اجانب فما هي الدولة التي يحملون مواطنيتها
اذا كانت الاجابة دولة فلسطين
لا يوجد واقعا دولة تحمل هذا الاسم
و اذا ما كانت ستوجد هكذا دولة بعد ما يسمى تسوية
فلا داعي عندها ان يبقوا هنا بصفة لاجئين .. اقيمت دولتهم فليذهبوا اليها طالما انهم ايدوا هذا الخيار و طالما قبلت هذه الدولة و هم قبلوا بجنسيتها و بالتالي بمواطنيتها

و لماذا يبقوا في الاساس هنا طالما ان دولتهم ستقام و كأن هذا البلذ مليء بفرص العمل و ثرواته الطبيعية هائلة
الجواب هو كلا .. لكن لست انا الذي يجب ان اعمل على اعادة ارضهم لهم ...الانسان لا يجب ان يتخلى عن ارضه فليحسنوا خياراتهم السياسية

I think elhorr made a valid point in this post.

Residency/work permits are usually granted to foreign nationals working in Lebanon. Right now the Palestinians do not hold Palestinian passports, hence they are not eligible for residency/work permits.

The Israelis have been promoting this idea of residency permits under the pretext of 'humanitarian' reasons, however, the driving force behind it, is to have the Palestinians living comfortably in those countries and hence are less likely to want to return back to the Palestinian territories/Palestinian state. They are promoting the issue of the residency permits in order to avoid having those refugees obtain a Palestinian Passport. This move will be a stepping stone for the subsequent naturalization of the Palestinians in the country they are currently residing.

I, personally, am not against giving the Palestinians work permits in Lebanon however the framework and timeline should be carefully set.

An idea of such a framework would be:

1- Obtaining Palestinian Passports (from the Palestinian authority or state)

2- As former refugees and current Palestinian Nationals, they will be given a grace period (6mo-1yr or more, it depends) in order to find a job and hence be eligible for a work permit

3- In case they don't find a job, an arrangement will be made to have them sent back to Palestine or to any other country (As is the case with foreign workers whose residency/work permit expires).

4- The former refugees, who can now legally reside and work in Lebanon, should be denied the right to a Lebanese citizenship by including such a term either on their residency/work permit, or by drafting such a law. As an example: If you were born in Lebanon to parents who are former Palestinian refugees, then you cannot obtain the Lebanese citizenship.

The idea behind item number 4 is to avoid having 500K refugees being naturalized, while maintaining equal immigration rights (similar to all other foreign nationals) of other Palestinians who might move to Lebanon in the future for work.

[elias-aj]

Notwithstanding the main debate (right of return / confessional situation etc.), one has to try to know if giving to all the palestinian refugees residence permits could be realistic for a country like Lebanon.

I mean from a social and economical point of view. Indeed, giving residence permits does not mean they will all find a house and a job. Giving them residence permits does not mean they will integrate easily into the lebanese society...which is already - the least we could say - divided.

In the sake of humanity and in order to improve the conditions of those poor refugees, a solution must be found. This solution can not be found only by Lebanon, given the fact that we too have big social and economical problems and that is impossible for us to offer them decent conditions of life.

The thing, called Arab countries, with the other thing called international community, must work on a solution to the refugees issue. Lebanon can eventually contribute to a solution but only to some extent.

Let's say that the US stops giving 3 USD billions yearly military subventions to the entity called Israel and allocate those funds to the refugees issue...may be it could help.

[elhakeem2jours]

Originally Posted by elias-aj

Notwithstanding the main debate (right of return / confessional situation etc.), one has to try to know if giving to all the palestinian refugees residence permits could be realistic for a country like Lebanon.

I mean from a social and economical point of view. Indeed, giving residence permits does not mean they will all find a house and a job. Giving them residence permits does not mean they will integrate easily into the lebanese society...which is already - the least we could say - divided.

In the sake of humanity and in order to improve the conditions of those poor refugees, a solution must be found. This solution can not be found only by Lebanon, given the fact that we too have big social and economical problems and that is impossible for us to offer them decent conditions of life.

The thing, called Arab countries, with the other thing called international community, must work on a solution to the refugees issue. Lebanon can eventually contribute to a solution but only to some extent.

Let's say that the US stops giving 3 USD billions yearly military subventions to the entity called Israel and allocate those funds to the refugees issue...may be it could help.

They will certainly be willing to flood Lebanon with billions of dollars to naturalize those Palestinians, tens of billions probably. America and Israel work hand in hand on this issue, they both have the same ambition. I am confident that Saudi Arabia would love to see this happen since Salafism is strife amongst those Palestinians in the camp and they could have a longer handed influence in the Levant.

They tried to bribe Rafic Hariri for many years, amongst others to accept money to naturalize. In 1994 or so over 60,000 Palestinian Muslim refugees were said to have acquired Lebanese citizenship even though it was most likely illegal. Today the western powers such as America are trying to put this vision they had with Rafic back on the table with his son, Saad, with all due respect to him since I don't know what his ambitions are to naturalize the Palestinians again. They see a great opportunity with Walid Jumblatt, who like Kamal Jumblatt would most likely be willing to accept a few hundred million in his bank account to do this, not to mention it would secure his strategic interests.

Money is not an issue, the Americans and Israelis, amongst others are most likely willing to team up tens of billions of dollars to settle the Palestinians in Lebanon. They will write off the entire debt of Lebanon to accomplish their dream of whitewashing the history and making them Lebanese.

They will never become Lebanese before the Christians become extinct, even the Shiites will oppose this. But they will try, and they will try to make Lebanon just another Arab country that can receive mail by sending a US zip code like the Gulf, Egypt, or Jordan.

They are all snakes

[elhakeem2jours]

Originally Posted by Anny

It will be a big lost for Iran and Syria'S government as well because Shiaas will be a big minority in the region. And thats why I belive Shiaas and Christians in ALL the Middle East should fight this idea of having only Sunnies countries in the Middle East. Thats why in fact I always hated Bashir Gemayel just because he was with Israelies at the time he should have been more smart than that and understood the christian futur problem with Kessinger plan for all the christians in the middle east. Geagea along with Amine Gemayel have loading money in their pockets from the US and Israel to make work this plan. Saudies are helping alot in this to get rid of Shiaas and christians and to settle down Palestinians in Lebanon. And I belive that is why Harriri father was killed and Amine Gemayel was killed, some people are against this plan.

Samir Geagea will never accept tawteen.

He went to jail for over ten years rather then submitting to the Syrians.

Perhaps they will try to trick Geagea and fool him, but he will never willingly submit to Palestinian tawteen!

If it were not for Bashir Gemayel Lebanon could have well become a Palestinian or Syrian state.

But I do agree with you, Shiites and Christians should unite against tawteen threat, amongst others, since technically even Shiites are a minority in the region-- a minority that is discriminated against politically in many Arab countries!

[elhakeem2jours]

Originally Posted by Venom

23% out of 100% is a frightening percentage!

23% here, but what if you were to ask that question on a PSP or FM forum?

it will be much higher...

Originally Posted by dodzi

Your post is the expression of many people's ignorance in Lebanon...

20% are for giving the Palestinians work permits and residence permits. This means that they will be able to work here, just like Syrians, Egyptians, Sri Lankans, Ethiopians, French, Americans, etc. It has nothing to do with making them Lebanese!

Unless you want to tell me that Palestinians are worth les than any other nationality on earth?

work permits and residence permits is the beginning of tawteen.

the palestinians are not worth less then anyone on this earth, but sadly there are half a million (10% of lebanon) who are palestinian refugees with no exit strategy. these palestinian refugees have imbedded themselves within a salafist ideology which is very popular and even more extreme then hamas ideology with the camps. they are an armed sect, they are a sect that the lebanese army is not even allowed to confront. these are people who harbor ill feelings towards lebanon. these are people who will transform lebanon into a new society, an islamic society, a sunni society, an arab society, and on top of it they don't belong in lebanon and lebanon does not have the infrastructure or size to support a mass flock of people.

No! No!

[YOSS]

It wouldn't be fair to the Lebanese society nor sound to consider the refugees as foreign workers, let alone resident permits.

Various workers come from other countries to work? yes.

An almost homogeneous group present since decades, involved in local hatred, and one that amounts to almost 15% of this society's population? ...


Well... I guess let's just say it ain't your average incoming foreign worker.

[abientot]

Originally Posted by elhakeem2jours

Samir Geagea will never accept tawteen.

He went to jail for over ten years rather then submitting to the Syrians.

Perhaps they will try to trick Geagea and fool him, but he will never willingly submit to Palestinian tawteen!

If it were not for Bashir Gemayel Lebanon could have well become a Palestinian or Syrian state.

But I do agree with you, Shiites and Christians should unite against tawteen threat, amongst others, since technically even Shiites are a minority in the region-- a minority that is discriminated against politically in many Arab countries!

Yih walaw! who could ever trick Samir Geagea! he's too clever to fall in that trap

[Orange Patriot]

erm....no thank you.

permits and residency will turn into citizenship in a matter of generations. the problems of citizenship are known and not to be explained here as it is not the topic.

i do want them out of lebanon, however, i do not agree with placing them in just any other country. its rinse, repeat for , what? ...the 4th time? and has it improved in every instance? [the one expception i can possibly think of is a gulf country where the existing authority is not questioned].

this will all end when they are back in their own home. period. this is what the israelis dont understand in the same way that islamic extremists do not understand that israelis have a right to a state as well.

what the israelis dont understand is that if they keep this up, one day they will find the same thing done to them as what was done to the palestinians: the UN will pass some half-*** resolution and plop the palestinians smack in the middle of israeli land and call it the state of palestine, because they would have taken the mantle of the repressed people for generations.

we will be back to start the cycle all over again. hoorah

[MockingBird]

Originally Posted by Greg Davis

option 5

Deport the palestinian refugees to one or some of our affulent neigbouring islamic countries like the UAE, Quatar, Kuwait, Libya , Saudia Arabia, or Iran.

It would be a win win situation.

1- We are tired of fighting, and its time someone else had a go. We are the weakest militarily, so why should we be the permanant forefront of the Islamic resistance.

2- They can provide a better standard of living for their muslim brothers and sisters, who have been living in squaller for over half a century.

3- many of those countries have a high influx of migrants from all over the world to keep up with thier labour demands, so , by giving priority to their fellow palestinians, not only are they supporting their fellow arabs, but they are also reducing the demographic shift that is occuring in places like uae and quatar, where the bangladeshis, indians and pakistanis almost outnumber the local arabs.

It is the only viable and practical solution. All other solutions will be at the expence of the Lebanese people.

The solution should be a mixed one where the 4 million refugees would be given the choice either to go back to the future palestinian state (westbank &gaza) or be given long term residency visa (to be transformed into passeport after a certain period) in arab countries that are able to absorb them like Lybia, Iraq, Yemen and especially KSA
KSA have plenty of land and resources with a relatively small population - 27 million for an area of 2,149,690 km2 - desnisty of 11 person/km2 . Lebanon has a density of more than 450 person/Km2
They can easily replace some of the 5 million asian workers with millions of palestinians - it's not a democratic country - the refugees will not have much political impact on the country and most probably they would integrate smoothly with the locals (same religion, culture, customs, etc...)