Another Ziad Baroud great move

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by 3ameed

FPM has a large bloc in parliament and is now in government. What are we waiting for?

A loyal majority?

[3ameed]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

A loyal majority?

You don't need a majority for a law proposal.

The opposition's job isn't to simply BLOCK the majority, by the way.


And if you're referring to the government, it's national unity, remember?

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by 3ameed

You don't need a majority for a law proposal.

The minority's job isn't to simply BLOCK the majority, by the way.

And if you're referring to the government, it's national unity, remember?

The secular project is not just about proposing one or 2 project of laws.

It's a whole massive project that needs the proper legal structure to rule it,but mostly,the proper executive power and infrastructure to implement it.

There is neither enough time nor enough resources for this now.Nor does the political climate or the actual majority allow for such a big move.

This project is one of the most challenging one to the country and it is one of the most complicated and important points on FPM's program.

Do you think that this project can be simply entrusted to people like Hariri,Joumblat,Amine or Geagea?

Let's not try to hide behind our little fingers here,ok?

[3ameed]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

The secular project is not just about proposing one or 2 project of laws.

It's a whole massive project that needs the proper legal structure to rule it,but mostly,the proper executive power and infrastructure to implement it.

There is neither enough time nor enough resources for this now.Nor does the political climate or the actual majority allow for such a big move.

This project is one of the most challenging one to the country and it is one of the most complicated and important points on FPM's program.

Do you think that this project can be simply entrusted to people like Hariri,Joumblat,Amine or Geagea?

Let's not try to hide behind our little fingers here,ok?

Who's hiding here? Nothing justifies inaction.

I'm not asking FPM to 'entrust' anything to anyone. I'm asking FPM to lead the way in terms of secular reform, as it used to and as it should do.

But to be honest, how can the newly anointed "Pope of the orient" be a force for secular change in Lebanon?


.

[Busfeir]

Abou Sandal

I agree completely with you about the need for drastic and massive reform, and also that it can't be done until after the election.

But where is our detailed program? It is not enough to shout slogans in the air.

We should have a deconfessionalizing program that is as well publicized as the MoU with Hizbullah. We should stand up and say: "This is what we are committed to: XYZ, over 2 yrs, ABC over 5 yrs, etc.".

In my opinion it MUST include:

a) New electoral law (see below)

b) Lebanon as one voting district. People vote for parties and each party gets a number of seats equivalent to the proportion of votes it got.

c) A senate (majlis shuyukh) to protect the rights of the minorities.

d) Abolishment of all sectarian quotas and reserved positions.

e) Etc.

Why can't we release a memorandum of deconfessionalism and plaster it on every wall?

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Busfeir

Abou Sandal

I agree completely with you about the need for drastic and massive reform, and also that it can't be done until after the election.

But where is our detailed program? It is not enough to shout slogans in the air.

We should have a deconfessionalizing program that is as well publicized as the MoU with Hizbullah. We should stand up and say: "This is what we are committed to: XYZ, over 2 yrs, ABC over 5 yrs, etc.".

In my opinion it MUST include:

a) New electoral law (see below)

b) Lebanon as one voting district. People vote for parties and each party gets a number of seats equivalent to the proportion of votes it got.

c) A senate (majlis shuyukh) to protect the rights of the minorities.

d) Abolishment of all sectarian quotas and reserved positions.

e) Etc.

Why can't we release a memorandum of deconfessionalism and plaster it on every wall?

I agree with much of what you're saying but just because i don't want to drift too much off-topic,and before i go,i would like to say that only FPM has such clear vision and program.

This does not mean that all others would necessarily be against it,but FPM is the only Party that makes it a viable notion,and an applicable program.

Anyway,

IMHO,the first priority on such program and the item on top of the list,should be to start this program with a popular referendum.After that,giving a delay for each Party to propose its ideas and visions,before all this could be wrapped up into a proposal of law,and submitted to the Parliament.

The vote and eventual amendments to the constitution could start then,and only then.

Of course...It would be naive and/or misleading to consider that this could be feasible within the actual political context.

[False Morel]

Bou Sandal, as you're at it, 7emel 7amiltak 3a Baroud (), you seem well-informed regarding the new law! So, if you or anyone else could clear this issue up once and for all please: what does that law actually deal with?!

I'll post the issued part by the ministry:

عطفا على إحالتنا الى المديرية العامة للأحوال الشخصية المؤرخة في 21-10-2008 والرامية الى تنفيذ طلبات شطب المذهب في السجل وفقا لما ورد في الرأي الصادر عن هيئة التشريع والاستشارات رقم 276/2007 تاريخ 5/7/2007 واستكمالا لتلك الاحالة، وحيث انه يقتضي التأكيد على حق كل مواطن في عدم التصريح عن القيد الطائفي في سجلات الأحوال الشخصية أو شطب هذا القيد، باعتبار ان ذلك الحق مستمد من أحكام الدستور ومن الاعلان العالمي لحقوق الانسان ومن سائر الاتفاقيات الدولية التي انضم إليها لبنان، وحيث ان الدستور اللبناني قد كرس، في المادة التاسعة منه، حرية الاعتقاد وجعلها، من بين مختلف الحريات التي كفلها الدستور، الوحيدة التي لها طابع الإطلاق،

Now, as to the first option highlighted above in blue, true, it'd be a first step of nothing! Anyway, this would mean that any citizen will have the right to ask for not writing down his sectarian affiliation on his "Ikhraj Aid". Ya3ne, wherever he'd need to use that paper, the one looking at it wouldn't have that golden opportunity to know the person's sect. Only that employee making the paper would know; he'd be crazily looking up in the record for the mentioned sect before he draws that stripe; of course he'd go like: "Aaaah, a Shiite, lets draw that stripe in yellow color, wohahaha".
Bottom line, this is nothing. No credits for that Baroud guy.

Now, the law mentions that "or" and followed by another option highlighted in green above. As far as I interpreted it, if implemented, it should be some huge first step towards secularism. This would literally mean adding an extra category to those officially recognized sects in Lebanon, under the name of: "No Religion"! This would mean that the official sectarian record would be abandoned/canceled. Ya3ne, statistically speaking for example, a Maronite canceling his sectarian record would mean that the Maronite sect would be decremented by one (Maronites - 1) while the No Religion category would be incremented by one. And the government would categorize that person as a Non-religious and not as a Maronite even though that indicidual would be still following the Maronite faith and going to church every Sunday to perform his weekly religious rituals.

However, the second option would have catastrophic consequencies if taken at the moment. Firstly, since in Lebanon there's no Civil Marriage yet, Non-religious people wont be able to marry! Another consequence, they wont be able to apply to any governmental positions!
Other disadvantage, those people wont be able to visit KSA anymore. So, a reminder to those future converters, if you'd like to visit KSA once in your lives, do it now!

Awaiting other elaborations and comments.

[Secular Lebanon]

Any one got an answer to this important question ? :

"if you remove your sect from your record, can you still apply for a governmental position reserved to people of your (former) sect ? can you still run for municipal or legislative elections ? Are you still considered by the government a member of the sect ?"

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by Secular Lebanon

Any one got an answer to this important question ? :

"if you remove your sect from your record, can you still apply for a governmental position reserved to people of your (former) sect ? can you still run for municipal or legislative elections ? Are you still considered by the government a member of the sect ?"

Of course. I mean if you remove it from your ekhraj keid, it does not mean it is removed from the whole governmental records. Will it be removed from deyrit el noufouss? And if you want to get married what do you do?

Until they establish the civil marriage and you start voting in rooms on which there is not written "catholic" "maronite".... and you vote for a person without knowing his sect, then all this is bull.

[teshesh]

This is an information form a source inside the interior ministry "al noufouss wal a7wal al shakhsiyyeh" : only the subscription on ikhraj el eid is removed.... nothing more and nothing less.
everything stays the same way it is: your affiliation for the sect, application for jobs, elections.... but now you can hold a paper that doesn't say it loud!
this is a very symbolic gesture. it is nice, but it doesn't form any advance on the road of citizenship and secularism.