Another Ziad Baroud great move

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by Mey

Youchka, in this case my guess would be that you would vote Akaliyet (minorities), and yes I would be proud to do that instead of allowing them to count me as a number ion a sect for their statistics.

When you die, you will be buried according to your beliefs and how is your life dictated by religion ? When you go to register your kids, your kids will not have a record for their religion in the state and thus do not officially belong to a religion.

Trust me having this in big numbers will confuse the state and force it to act....

OK you've been busy and stopped posting... did you stop reading my posts also, walaw? :)

This step has nothing to do with removing your religious affiliation from the Register. It will still be mentioned there. It's only an option to have them not mention it on the extract copy (naskha) that you request.

Your name on the voting lists will still be categorized according to your sect. The State will still know your sect and treat you on that basis.

I see the State confused us, instead of us confusing the State.

It's a good little step nevertheless... it could have been a little better if they made it an option to ask for the sect to be mentioned and the default not to mention it, rather than the other way around.

In any case, I anticipate an initial rush by people to get Extracts that don't mention their sects... only to see those same people rush back to get another copy with their sect mentioned when they discover how inconvenient it is because many of the (State and non-State) institutions will demand proof of religious affiliation...

Basically, I anticipate many will end up with 2 copies: one that mentions the sect and another that doesn't. And depending on the situation, they will decide which one to use.

If they need a job, they will use the one that mentions the sect. If they need to impress their girlfriend, they will use the one that doesn't :)

Which one will YOU be using? :)

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[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by shadow1

Will Mr Baroud have it on his conscience that someone gets killed in the next bout of sectarian killing for being mistaken of belonging to the wrong decision?

Will he be happy putting the poor citizens through hours of extreme tenseness while their religious background is being checked before the get liquidated?

Why should he be instrumental in creating quizzical uncertainty for those wanting to know what religion a person comes from if he has one of those inert first and last names and his accent or location fail to give his religion away.

While some people think it's a step in the right direction, I would like to know which direction this is . All that this gesture does is complicate matters and may result in innocent people getting killed to no fault of their own except some lousy kid on a 7ajez failed to establish their true religious identity.
Poor lebanon it seems to constantly go from bad to worse.

How inconsiderate of Mr. Baroud to make the job of those killers harder, and for no compelling reason! LOL

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[Abou Sandal]

It is obvious that many of those who think that this step is marvelous,have a wrong idea of what it is about.

This step is only a cosmetic action,that does not go anywhere near the secular project of governance.

It looks beautiful,it bares the words "remove sect" in its title,but it does not even touch the problem of our system being sectarian.

No,this cosmetic touch up,does not go into the right direction...At least Not into the direction of abolishing the sectarian system.

The mere fact that some are fooled by it,and give it more credit than it deserves,is enough for me to consider that,as bad side effects.

I will not be fooled again by such touch ups!

This is the second time that this is happening,the first time being with the issuance of identity cards not mentioning sects or religion, and it is only a small continuation of an original action,that is not up to the expectations anyway.

In this sense,it is not even in the right direction.It is good,nice and dandy,but totally useless.

Enough cosmetics!

We need the real thing!

We ask for the real thing!

And i strongly believe that only FPM has the project and the will,to deliver the real thing.

[Mey]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

OK you've been busy and stopped posting... did you stop reading my posts also, walaw? :)

This step has nothing to do with removing your religious affiliation from the Register. It will still be mentioned there. It's only an option to have them not mention it on the extract copy (naskha) that you request.

Your name on the voting lists will still be categorized according to your sect. The State will still know your sect and treat you on that basis.

I see the State confused us, instead of us confusing the State.

It's a good little step nevertheless... it could have been a little better if they made it an option to ask for the sect to be mentioned and the default not to mention it, rather than the other way around.

In any case, I anticipate an initial rush by people to get Extracts that don't mention their sects... only to see those same people rush back to get another copy with their sect mentioned when they discover how inconvenient it is because many of the (State and non-State) institutions will demand proof of religious affiliation...

Basically, I anticipate many will end up with 2 copies: one that mentions the sect and another that doesn't. And depending on the situation, they will decide which one to use.

If they need a job, they will use the one that mentions the sect. If they need to impress their girlfriend, they will use the one that doesn't :)

Which one will YOU be using? :)

-------------------

Mirka :) I missed discussing things with you as well as everyone, and you know it is events like these that bring me back as this is my only concern now...

If you notice the text of the decision:

قبول عدم تصريح صاحب العلاقة عن القيد الطائفي وقبول طلبات شطب القيد الطائفي من سجلات النفوس، كما ترد الى رؤساء النفوس دونما حاجة لأي إجراء اضافي.
2 - وفي حال عدم التصريح عن القيد أو طلب شطبه، تدوين إشارة "/" في الخانة المخصصة للمذهب في قيود الأحوال الشخصية العائدة لصاحب العلاقة".

The decision caters for two issues, and apparently you missed one :)

When you TOSHTOB, it literally means cancelling, 3adam tasree7 is what you said when one chooses not to put it on Ikhraj Qayd.

So I beg to differ and do not consider this merely cosmetic as my dear friend Abu Sha7ata said (I miss you too friend :) )

This denotes a complete cancellation of anything related to sect in my record, not merely hiding it on the print out.

Will they keep the name on the voting list ? I shall call them and ask, because that should not be the case, but I will inquire :)

Anyways, I will call the ministry again as I called them yesterday to inquire about the issue of voting and other issues, and how to apply it and they told me that all you need is to go to your place of register and submit the form there.


I do not deny that this might limit some rights as first, but as I said again, if we all do it, it will force the state to deal with us, and moreover, it will force the state to follow the law because in our law, all these mentioned things about sect violate our constitution.

[Busfeir]

There is a good discussion of this issue on Qifa Nabki's blog:

In particular, the points:

1. How will a member of either the 19th sect or the zero sect (let’s call them 19′ers and 0′ers) aspire to any governmental or municipal position that is traditionally given to a member of a particular sect? How will they be able to run for parliament, when the Ta’if Accord says nothing about 19′ers or 0′ers?

2. What is the legal status associated with the act of leaving one’s sect, from the perspective of religious law? I think it is perfectly straightforward to make the argument that removing one’s confessional identity from an official file does not amount to renouncing one’s faith, however I can also imagine that many people would be uneasy about doing so without an explicit statement along these lines from a religious authority. What interest would such an authority have, however, in making such a statement if it meant that people would drop their sectarian affiliation?

3. What happens if the people who choose to join the 19′ers or 0′ers come disproportionally from one sect? In other words, if 300,000 people decide to become 19′ers or 0′ers and the vast majority of them are Greek Orthodox or Shiite, this will tip the confessional balance of the country, raising questions about the proportional distribution of governmental positions.

4. I know what you’re thinking… people are already raising questions about the proportional distribution of governmental positions, and with good reason. The best estimates put the Shiites in Lebanon at around 40%, while they hold only 21% of parliament seats. Meanwhile, Christians probably represent around 30% of the population, while holding 50% of the seats. This leads us to our final problem, which derives from the first and the third. If 19′ers/0′ers accumulate enough numbers to the point where they can start making an argument from proportionality to be included in the government, what is to prevent anyone else from making the same argument? In other words, if we’re going to start counting, then let’s count everybody.

You can read the entire article here:

A Nineteenth Sect, or None at All? « Qifa Nabki

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Mey

This denotes a complete cancellation of anything related to sect in my record, not merely hiding it on the print out.

Hehe...Nice to see you coming back...Right in time ;)

Ok,now i'll comment on this part of your post.Let me show you some of the points that sustain my assessment of such move,for being even barely cosmetic:

Few examples:

1-Try to look at the electoral lists.You can only search by your sect.And this will not change.(which means that also in appearance,this cosmetic move is not complete)

2-If you want to present your candidacy for any public office,your sect is the first criteria of selection.And someone somewhere will search into "hidden" records and find them.

3-If you want to apply for any public job,your sect is also the first criteria of selection.And you might even need to produce papers that proves your sect,in order to complete your application!

4-Let's say that someone does not want his "personal status" to follow the rules and laws of any religion or sect,this is still impossible,and no alternative is presented by such moves.

But mostly,and since your "personal status" still follow your sect's laws,it means that there are still public records where you are registered as being from this or that sect.


Conclusion:

The system is still totally sectarian and relies totally on the many records showing each one's sect.And we will still follow that rule,and cannot do anything about it,since there is no alternatives to it.

And,in all cases,

Removing your sect from one of these records, does not mean that your status is now unknown,since there are many other records where you are listed,and from which you cannot be unlisted,since there are no alternatives.

In anyway,and let's suppose that all your records were suddenly erased,it does not change anything.Because whether your papers or your public record show or do not show your sect,is totally useless,since your public and private life is still ruled,according to the law and to the constitution, by the nature of your sect.

Which means that this move is yet another cosmetic move,since you cannot cash it anywhere.

It's a useless move,nice and dandy,but that has no added value whatsoever,either on my public or on my private life,(except on the Barabara road block :P),and so far,has the only effect to make the minister look nice and working in the right direction.

While the real "right direction" is actually somewhere else.

I for example don't mind having the mention of my sect on my papers and records,as long as i have a real secular country,and can live in this country,a true secular civil life.

Until then...I only see a waste of time and energy,and people working on cosmetics rather than on the core of the problem.

And hopefully those cosmetic moves do not lead to a widespread illusion that something is being done,about that matter.

Because the more we have such illusions,the more time we will end up loosing.

The last illusion that we had was almost 10 years ago,when a law was passed to issue identity cards not mentioning our sect or religion.

We fell back then under the illusion that we were heading towards the secular state,yet time proved to us that this was only a cosmetic move,intended to make the government look nice,and to make us wait like forever.

No more cosmetics from now on.It is either the real thing or nothing.

We should not accept anymore "Demi-mesures".

Only FPM has the right program and the will to get me where i want.And i'm sure that FPM would never engage in deceiving me with little cosmetic acts,whowever beautiful they might look.

I still trust that the real change will come,only when FPM will come to power.

[Busfeir]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Only FPM has the right program and the will to get me where i want.And i'm sure that FPM would never engage in deceiving me with little cosmetic acts,whowever beautiful they might look.

I still trust that the real change will come,only when FPM will come to power.

And if it doesn't? Will you switch your allegiance?

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Busfeir

And if it doesn't? Will you switch your allegiance?

Without a shred of doubt...I might even switch the country i'm living in.

War is nothing compared to this sectarian system.I'm used to live with sporadic wars,but i'm still and will never get used to live in a sectarian system.

FPM is actually the last real and effective chance for secularism.

[The Jade]

Originally Posted by shadow1

Will Mr Baroud have it on his conscience that someone gets killed in the next bout of sectarian killing for being mistaken of belonging to the wrong decision?

Will he be happy putting the poor citizens through hours of extreme tenseness while their religious background is being checked before the get liquidated?

Why should he be instrumental in creating quizzical uncertainty for those wanting to know what religion a person comes from if he has one of those inert first and last names and his accent or location fail to give his religion away.

While some people think it's a step in the right direction, I would like to know which direction this is . All that this gesture does is complicate matters and may result in innocent people getting killed to no fault of their own except some lousy kid on a 7ajez failed to establish their true religious identity.
Poor lebanon it seems to constantly go from bad to worse.

Yeah, that Baroud has no conscience at all huh ???

But you know with google and stuff, the new terrorists could now go online check your name on google and see:
If you're a maronite, you get a shot in the head
Sunnite, in the leg
Shiite, in the ***

[3ameed]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

It is obvious that many of those who think that this step is marvelous,have a wrong idea of what it is about.

This step is only a cosmetic action,that does not go anywhere near the secular project of governance.

It looks beautiful,it bares the words "remove sect" in its title,but it does not even touch the problem of our system being sectarian.

No,this cosmetic touch up,does not go into the right direction...At least Not into the direction of abolishing the sectarian system.

The mere fact that some are fooled by it,and give it more credit than it deserves,is enough for me to consider that,as bad side effects.

I will not be fooled again by such touch ups!

This is the second time that this is happening,the first time being with the issuance of identity cards not mentioning sects or religion, and it is only a small continuation of an original action,that is not up to the expectations anyway.

In this sense,it is not even in the right direction.It is good,nice and dandy,but totally useless.

Enough cosmetics!

We need the real thing!

We ask for the real thing!

And i strongly believe that only FPM has the project and the will,to deliver the real thing.

FPM has a large bloc in parliament and is now in government. What are we waiting for?