Another Ziad Baroud great move

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by SISCO

I don't see any problem with what ZB did !!! Secular Lebanon needs secular project managers and a project plan for 20 years (at least) !!

Cosmetic, non important, etc. ! At least he did the first step !! Some parties claim the secularism and never did anything !! Maybe this action will be followed by others ???

If you're referring to what i said earlier,i said it and say it again:It is a cosmetic step.

Cosmetic...meaning no effects whatsoever on the ground.

This is not what a secular like me might ever be satisfied with.Not even near.

The change is not done by such move,which is a continuation of a cosmetic action that started earlier.

This is not "a first step" of anything,since it leads nowhere...It is yet another step, out of the box,whoever beautiful it might be.

The problem is not whether our papers or our registers show or do not show our religion or sect.

The problem is of a different nature,and so far,no one tackled it yet.And this new step is nowhere near from that register.

This move made by Baroud is nice,but it does not bring any added value for a secular person like me.

So i don't agree at all with qualifying it as a "great move",due to the many reasons that i enumerated earlier,and if you disagree,than it's ok,but at least read my previous post again.

I don't see anything bad in it,i like its appearance whoever useless its effects are,but it is definitely not a "great move".

Because simply it does not translate any change,and definitely,this is not the change that i seek or need.

And i believe that the real change will only come when FPM will be in power.Thus my unconditional support for FPM,until further notice.

[SISCO]

Originally Posted by vicking

SISCO, I agree with you for the wedding ! We should have a law for civil marriage.

As I wrote earlier, you are not alone in Lebanon. Half of the country is Muslim and influenced by surrounding countries. Islam has a much stronger concept of identity than Christianity.
Christian religion does NOT provide answers on political, social, cultural level - while Islam does. This is why you have a lot of Islamic parties that advocates the rule of Islam as it CAN be mixed with the state.

Last, again see what happenned in Egypt - Iraq - Palestine. I Traveled in some of these countries, Christian can't open their mouth.
Why you think that things would be different in Lebanon ? Are you willing to take the risk ? Not me and not 99% of the people I know from both sects.

Vicking,

Secularism will not be instored in Lebanon anytime soon !!
Such project needs :
- At least 20 years
- Real project plan
- Secular project managers (parties and politicians)

--> the project starts in schools in order to create a new secular generation (christians and muslims). Actual generations can not accept secularism.
We need to raise small Lebanese secular kids from all sects.

This project must be done in parallel to the project of the Lebanese state (reforms, modern laws, etc.)

To conclude, unfortunately, we will never have a secular Lebanon with actual parties and politicians !
In my opinion we need real left modern party ! With actual sectarian and extreme rightist parties, secularism is not a project !

[vicking]

Originally Posted by SamerTayyar

I dont believe that lebanon should become secular TOMORROW... secularism

failed in some arab states because of dictatorship and intolerance of the people...

secularism in Lebanon should be achieved step by step,from a civil state to

a secular one.secularism education has to be generalised in the society

starting from schools, it might happen in 1 year or 50 years but we have to

work for it regardless of the obstacles. I dont want to get into details, but I

stand by GMA's words in the last civil state conference by tayyar where he

said that he will insure that Lebanon will move towards a secular state step

by step. Seculariism wont be at "my" expense as I dont differentiate between a lebanese

christian or muslim..you didnt answer me how do you portray yourself as a hardcore fpmer

while FPM is working against your vision(fully sectarian system)

This is a dream that if becomes true...would turn into nightmare. In these 3 arab countries you had dictators... cool, and who tels you you wont have them in lebanon ? What happenned if we get a dictator ?

2nd, what's wrong with the schools ?? I was in a Christian school as all my familly. On the morning we pray God "Notre Père qui est aux Cieux.." Also we have 2 hours per week religious education.

How do you want to change scholing education ? By forbidding CHristian/Muslim schools ?
I want my children to receive a Christian education like it or not - am I a sectarian ?

Unfortunatly you don't think far, you don't see risks and you agree to take risks (vital risks) on your own religion.

Yes for reducing sectarian in Lebanon in line with FPM but NO to cancel it

[Positive Balance]

When the MoU gets criticized, the defense is that it is a first step in a longer process; you can't change attitudes overnight, but...

When a non-FPMer takes a first step in a matter that corresponds with a central FPM tenet (secularism), it represents nothing and is merely cosmetic?

In any case, I am happy he did it. It is a first step, but if I'm not mistaken on Baroud, he's always been a supporter of secularism in politics.

[Amirkani]

As many said here, there is nothing "bad" about this step... on the other hand, I wouldn't call it a great step either... it's better than nothing... so maybe we can agree on calling it a little step in the right direction. And Baroud should be given credit for adopting the activists' initiative.

Also as many said here, let's not get too excited that it will have tangible effects on our lives or realities (unless, as Taifoon said, we start getting kidnapped again at roadblocks). As AbouSho7ata said, where can we cash it? Nowhere, yet.

I will even go further by correcting the misstatements here about "atheists" being able to officially declare themselves as such or your religion getting stricken out from the official vital statistics records.

Atheists are still not recognized by the State. If you want your civil rights you still have to declare yourself as a member of one of the 18 officially recognized sects. If you don't, you will have to live without your civil rights.

As for your religious affiliation being stricken out from the official records, it is not so either. It will still be there. Your option is only not to have it copied onto the Extract... the piece of paper (Ikhraj)... however, rest assured that it will still mention your religious affiliation in the actual Register held at the Ministry even you opted for it not be mentioned on the Extract. Next time you need another Extract (Ikhraj) you'll probably have to tell the clerk again not write in your religious affiliation.

Last but not least, as far as the State is concerned, your rights are still a function of your religious affiliation. Any of your transactions that need to be initiated, recognized or sanctioned by the State will still be based on your religious affiliation.

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[Youchka]

I encourage any action done by the MPs or ministers to try something new, something different, something maybe better.

I did not read the whole thread so am not sure if this has been mentioned (if so I apologize) but can someone tell how will this move change our lives? The way I see it, when I vote i still go to a room on which door is written MARONITE, GREEK ORTHODOX... When I die, I will have to be buried in christian rituals. And between my voting and my death, everything in my life will be dictated by religion.
So?

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by Positive Balance

When the MoU gets criticized, the defense is that it is a first step in a longer process; you can't change attitudes overnight, but...

When a non-FPMer takes a first step in a matter that corresponds with a central FPM tenet (secularism), it represents nothing and is merely cosmetic?

In any case, I am happy he did it. It is a first step, but if I'm not mistaken on Baroud, he's always been a supporter of secularism in politics.

Ziad baroud is BY FAR one of the most honest and hard working politician, anything he does, I have no doubt that it was after hard work, and therefore, this move is highly appreciated by Baroud. But you also need to know that an NGO is behind this project, they have been working on this project for a long time, and minister Baroud actually heard their voice and answered back in a positive way.
It is a good step, but unfortunately, it won't affect in ANY way whatsoever our lives.

[Secular Lebanon]

I think it's a terrific move and a great platform to move forward.

But I have a question : if you remove your sect from your record, can you still apply for a governmental position reserved to people of your (former) sect ?

Are you still considered by the government a member of the sect ?

Otherwise, it would be dangerous.

If all secular people remove the sect identification, people can then tell them : you cannot run for the catholic seat or you can no longer be appointed to this sunni position, etc...

Secular Lebanese could become even more marginalized.

So, the consequences of deleting the sect should be clarirified before we do it.

[shadow1]

Will Mr Baroud have it on his conscience that someone gets killed in the next bout of sectarian killing for being mistaken of belonging to the wrong decision?

Will he be happy putting the poor citizens through hours of extreme tenseness while their religious background is being checked before the get liquidated?

Why should he be instrumental in creating quizzical uncertainty for those wanting to know what religion a person comes from if he has one of those inert first and last names and his accent or location fail to give his religion away.

While some people think it's a step in the right direction, I would like to know which direction this is . All that this gesture does is complicate matters and may result in innocent people getting killed to no fault of their own except some lousy kid on a 7ajez failed to establish their true religious identity.
Poor lebanon it seems to constantly go from bad to worse.

[Mey]

I did not read the whole thread so am not sure if this has been mentioned (if so I apologize) but can someone tell how will this move change our lives? The way I see it, when I vote i still go to a room on which door is written MARONITE, GREEK ORTHODOX... When I die, I will have to be buried in christian rituals. And between my voting and my death, everything in my life will be dictated by religion.
So?

Youchka, in this case my guess would be that you would vote Akaliyet (minorities), and yes I would be proud to do that instead of allowing them to count me as a number ion a sect for their statistics.

When you die, you will be buried according to your beliefs and how is your life dictated by religion ? When you go to register your kids, your kids will not have a record for their religion in the state and thus do not officially belong to a religion.

Trust me having this in big numbers will confuse the state and force it to act....