Another Ziad Baroud great move

[SamerTayyar]

Originally Posted by vicking

my friend, please stop always attacking the LF for the war. At war time, itis true that LF cut heads over the ID.. but beleive me it is years after Palestinian and all Leftist or "Arabist" started.

LF is not better.. but not the only gulty. Last, at war time decisions have to be made such as an alliance with Israel; these decisions and alliances were at that time the only way to protect the Christian.

The LF were a very good party with Bashir Gemayel .. only after Geagea steped in, it started to become a party for thugs and doing same ugly attrocities than the "arabist" and PLO,etc.

As a FPMer, I amnot prepared to attack the LF war time unless we open all files. You can't just open 1 file.

oh for christ sake dont say you're an fpmer..I read your previous post and

was glad you didnt mention fpm or fpmers in it

how the heck was the LF a very good party with bachir..black saturday--safra massacre--ehden massacre???

does it ring any bells? I respect bachir the president but all of his previous actions are a no no to me.. Thank god

my family didnt get involved with anything that had to do with the LF, and stop saying that the alliance with Israel

helped the christians remember how they left them in mount lebanon... enough illusions bachir is dead habibi believe it

or not.. we(lebanese patriots) have the one and only leader and that is GMA..

[vicking]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

-The first step was made earlier when a law decided to issue identity card,not mentioning the sect or religion one belongs to.

-The second step now,was made by minister Baroud,and consists in removing the mention of one's sect or religion from the civil status's records.

It'all good but it is still of the same nature:Only cosmetic.It looks good but it gets you nowhere really.

Because in the real world I can simply ask the following question:We first removed the mention from the identity card and now, from the civil status registers...Good...But Wein Bosrofa Hay?

In other words,when someone dies for example,whether his records show his sect or religion,or not,his legacy will still follow the rules of the sect he belongs to.

Whether he likes it or not!

Which means:

1-Somewhere,somehow,there are still public records of his belonging to this or that sect.

2-No alternatives like a civil status law,are yet given,or even proposed, to those who do not want their personal status matters,to be subjected to this or that sect's laws.

So again I ask:What's the real interest?...Or...Wein Bosrofa Hay?

I insist that this is all cosmetic, since it only gives the external appearance of change...but no real and effective change on the ground.

And i'm not a fan of this type of governance,however beautiful it might look.

I repeat:Removing mentions of one's sect from public records will not change anything in our lives,and it will not bring any real added value,especially to those who want to be ruled by civil laws,and not by canonical laws or Sharia laws.

The battle is elsewhere...Not on a higher level,...but of a different nature.

So I'm sorry,but I fail to see in this action,such a "great move",because, although it's good,yet it is still almost useless, and do not come anywhere near my real aspirations.

I definitely trust that FPM is the only one capable of fighting the real battles and challenges ahead of us,and i'm certain that once in power,FPM will not just engage in cosmetic actions,but will attack the real problems,from their roots.

For all of this,I will vote FPM for the next election,without a single hesitation.

Cheers.

AS, sorry but this time I disagree with you.
Your comments make full sense if we were in Europe. In the Middle East, there is noreal concept of "NATION" or "CITIZENSHIP".

Countries are still very recent.. and Arabs still express their identity through their religion : Islam.

Furthermore, Islam is a religion that brings answers on social, political, judicial topics and not only spiritual.

For there 2 reasons, it is very difficult to ask our fellow Lebanese Muslims to think like you in termof FULL separation between religion and citizenship. It might work for a while, but after any kind of events (Christian vs Muslims or Sunni vs SHiaa), religion and identity will come back very strong.

It is too risky for Lebanese Christian to abolish religion fromthe system as this ystem although is bad.. garantees rights for both Christian & Muslims.

Lebanon system is not healthy, it is not healthy to have religious wars or religious political problems..but since Lebanese existence it was the case due to the numerous sects. You can't change it.

A non-sectarian lebanon can't exist.. it would be just a tactical step in order for one to "take over" another one.

Just see around you these non-religious Arabic countries. Egypt is a good exemplewhere 1 century ago, Christian were asking to separate State from Religion due to problems with COptic Patriarch.Then Abdel Nasser came with a secular state..that continues today but the only difference is that there is no Christian anymore today and not a single of their rights are respected.

Come back to reality, you are living in Lebanon & Middle East where God seems to be in charge of Politics..

Sorry for desillution.

[vicking]

Originally Posted by SamerTayyar

oh for christ sake dont say you're an fpmer..I read your previous post and

was glad you didnt mention fpm or fpmers in it

how the heck was the LF a very good party with bachir..black saturday--safra massacre--ehden massacre???

does it ring any bells? I respect bachir the president but all of his previous actions are a no no to me.. Thank god

my family didnt get involved with anything that had to do with the LF, and stop saying that the alliance with Israel

helped the christians remember how they left them in mount lebanon... enough illusions bachir is dead habibi believe it

or not.. we(lebanese patriots) have the one and only leader and that is GMA..

Again, you open war chapters. All what you talk makes sense but this was war. The "Arabist" were at least worst.

For info, Christian allied with Syria and then Israel for protection. Muslim did the same, they allied everybody - like us.

For me Bachir Gemayel is a hero and like for 99% of Christian.. although he did a LOT of mistakes.
Now I support GMA and I am also a hardcore FPMer - like it or not. I was there since 1990 and we did a lot during the occupation.

I am convinced about the alliance with HA and beleive we must expand it to all - however it does not mean that I am questionning our past.

Anyway history always repeats itself, you will see.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by vicking

AS, sorry but this time I disagree with you.
Your comments make full sense if we were in Europe. In the Middle East, there is noreal concept of "NATION" or "CITIZENSHIP".

Countries are still very recent.. and Arabs still express their identity through their religion : Islam.

Furthermore, Islam is a religion that brings answers on social, political, judicial topics and not only spiritual.

For there 2 reasons, it is very difficult to ask our fellow Lebanese Muslims to think like you in termof FULL separation between religion and citizenship. It might work for a while, but after any kind of events (Christian vs Muslims or Sunni vs SHiaa), religion and identity will come back very strong.

It is too risky for Lebanese Christian to abolish religion fromthe system as this ystem although is bad.. garantees rights for both Christian & Muslims.

Lebanon system is not healthy, it is not healthy to have religious wars or religious political problems..but since Lebanese existence it was the case due to the numerous sects. You can't change it.

A non-sectarian lebanon can't exist.. it would be just a tactical step in order for one to "take over" another one.

Just see around you these non-religious Arabic countries. Egypt is a good exemplewhere 1 century ago, Christian were asking to separate State from Religion due to problems with COptic Patriarch.Then Abdel Nasser came with a secular state..that continues today but the only difference is that there is no Christian anymore today and not a single of their rights are respected.

Come back to reality, you are living in Lebanon & Middle East where God seems to be in charge of Politics..

Sorry for desillution.

Abolishing the sectarian political system to a system of citizenship,might be a subject that we can discuss fully.

And i understand your fears yet think that those same fears are better addressed by the solution i'm bringing in.

But anyway,

My point was that this move was not such "a great move" because it does not bring any real added value whatsoever.

So in this sense,you might rejoice if you agree with me that nothing actually changed on the ground....Since it's only cosmetics.

[SamerTayyar]

Originally Posted by vicking

Again, you open war chapters. All what you talk makes sense but this was war. The "Arabist" were at least worst.

For info, Christian allied with Syria and then Israel for protection. Muslim did the same, they allied everybody - like us.

For me Bachir Gemayel is a hero and like for 99% of Christian.. although he did a LOT of mistakes.
Now I support GMA and I am also a hardcore FPMer - like it or not. I was there since 1990 and we did a lot during the occupation.

I am convinced about the alliance with HA and beleive we must expand it to all - however it does not mean that I am questionning our past.

Anyway history always repeats itself, you will see.

where did I praise the "arabists" in my post... personally I think that

any lebanese warlord who allied with a foreign country to kill fellow lebanese

is a traitor be it arabist ,fascist or extremist. how do you claim that you're

a hardcore fpmer while supporting A FULLY SECTARIAN SYSTEM or a

FEDERAL SYSTEM. It seems that you need to read the FPM charter

and a bit of FPM political education, contact MR ABBAS EL HACHEM

[vicking]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Abolishing the sectarian political system to a system of citizenship,might be a subject that we can discuss fully.

And i understand your fears yet think that those same fears are better addressed by the solution i'm bringing in.

But anyway,

My point was that this move was not such "a great move" because it does not bring any real added value whatsoever.

So in this sense,you might rejoice if you agree with me that nothing actually changed on the ground....Since it's only cosmetics.

I beleive on this topic, we need to wait several years, perhaps 50 years in order for Arab countries to accept their current borders, to make sure they think like us in separating Religion to System.

Acting alone will have grave consequences on the Christian of Lebanon. Just see what happenned in Egypt or Iraq.

Yes I am very happy that this law from Barroud is just cosmetics as it changes something at the end. What counts is the "Ekhraj Ed", not the remainning papers.

Cheers

[SISCO]

I don't see any problem with what ZB did !!! Secular Lebanon needs secular project managers and a project plan for 20 years (at least) !!

Cosmetic, non important, etc. ! At least he did the first step !! Some parties claim the secularism and never did anything !! Maybe this action will be followed by others ???

Why FPM, who is working on many projects through the Parliament (salaries, fuel prices, tanasot, etc.), don't present a law project for Civil marriage (for example) and before the elections ???

If anyone want to criticize such move, maybe he has to show us what he and his party is doing to instore secularism in lebanon.

As for vicking, the Lebanese sectarian system is useless !! it was proved (1943-2009) !!
In addition, I, as christian, have no fear from secular Lebanon !!!

[vicking]

Originally Posted by SamerTayyar

where did I praise the "arabists" in my post... personally I think that

any lebanese warlord who allied with a foreign country to kill fellow lebanese

is a traitor be it arabist ,fascist or extremist. how do you claim that you're

a hardcore fpmer while supporting A FULLY SECTARIAN SYSTEM or a

FEDERAL SYSTEM. It seems that you need to read the FPM charter

and a bit of FPM political education, contact MR ABBAS EL HACHEM

Samer, what I said is that if you want to open 1 file, you need to open all files.
Secondly, for info even GMA received FULL SUPPORT from Saddam Hussein between 88 and 89. Again, in war time you dont ask wether you can ask foreign help or not.. the only thing that you ask is "how will I survive".

Last, OK you are right.. I am changing 180°. I would like from TOMORROW ALL references to Christian /Muslims to be aboslished and also abolish sects for President / PM and Speaker and also sect for MP's.

Let's then do elections.. and let's have fun... then after 5 to 10 years, we will see how Lebanon Christian rpesence would be more & more deleted.

You think you have the keys of true... but you know, before you Egyptian, Iraqui or Palestinian Christian had the same feeling.. look today what they have, where they are.

Don't be naive, in the Middle East and especially Lebanon it is - IMPOSSIBLE - to have a secular system otherwise it would be at your expense.

[vicking]

Originally Posted by SISCO

I don't see any problem with what ZB did !!! Secular Lebanon needs secular project managers and a project plan for 20 years (at least) !!

Cosmetic, non important, etc. ! At least he did the first step !! Some parties claim the secularism and never did anything !! Maybe this action will be followed by others ???

Why FPM, who is working on many projects through the Parliament (salaries, fuel prices, tanasot, etc.), don't present a law project for Civil marriage (for example) and before the elections ???

If anyone want to criticize such move, maybe he has to show us what he and his party is doing to instore secularism in lebanon.

As for vicking, the Lebanese sectarian system is useless !! it was proved (1943-2009) !!
In addition, I, as christian, have no fear from secular Lebanon !!!

SISCO, I agree with you for the wedding ! We should have a law for civil marriage.

As I wrote earlier, you are not alone in Lebanon. Half of the country is Muslim and influenced by surrounding countries. Islam has a much stronger concept of identity than Christianity.
Christian religion does NOT provide answers on political, social, cultural level - while Islam does. This is why you have a lot of Islamic parties that advocates the rule of Islam as it CAN be mixed with the state.

Last, again see what happenned in Egypt - Iraq - Palestine. I Traveled in some of these countries, Christian can't open their mouth.
Why you think that things would be different in Lebanon ? Are you willing to take the risk ? Not me and not 99% of the people I know from both sects.

[SamerTayyar]

Originally Posted by vicking

Samer, what I said is that if you want to open 1 file, you need to open all files.
Secondly, for info even GMA received FULL SUPPORT from Saddam Hussein between 88 and 89. Again, in war time you dont ask wether you can ask foreign help or not.. the only thing that you ask is "how will I survive".

Last, OK you are right.. I am changing 180°. I would like from TOMORROW ALL references to Christian /Muslims to be aboslished and also abolish sects for President / PM and Speaker and also sect for MP's.

Let's then do elections.. and let's have fun... then after 5 to 10 years, we will see how Lebanon Christian rpesence would be more & more deleted.

You think you have the keys of true... but you know, before you Egyptian, Iraqui or Palestinian Christian had the same feeling.. look today what they have, where they are.

Don't be naive, in the Middle East and especially Lebanon it is - IMPOSSIBLE - to have a secular system otherwise it would be at your expense.

I dont believe that lebanon should become secular TOMORROW... secularism

failed in some arab states because of dictatorship and intolerance of the people...

secularism in Lebanon should be achieved step by step,from a civil state to

a secular one.secularism education has to be generalised in the society

starting from schools, it might happen in 1 year or 50 years but we have to

work for it regardless of the obstacles. I dont want to get into details, but I

stand by GMA's words in the last civil state conference by tayyar where he

said that he will insure that Lebanon will move towards a secular state step

by step. Seculariism wont be at "my" expense as I dont differentiate between a lebanese

christian or muslim..you didnt answer me how do you portray yourself as a hardcore fpmer

while FPM is working against your vision(fully sectarian system)