Another Ziad Baroud great move

[Maggie]

من جهته اعتبر وزير العدل السابق بهيج طبارة أن التعميم إيجابي، وهو يحصل للمرة الأولى في لبنان، وقد جاء حسب معلوماته، بناء لطلب أشخاص عديدين يريدون إلغاء القيد الطائفي عن نفوسهم.
لكن التعميم، أضاف طبارة، يطرح في الوقت نفسه إشكاليات عديدة على مستوى التطبيق، فهو لا يسري على المرشحين للانتخابات النيابية، لأنه يترتب على كل مرشح أن يوضح انتماءه الطائفي والمذهبي، ولا على التعيينات الإدارية، خصوصاً تعيينا

، خصوصاً تعيينات الفئة الأولى، ولا على الزواج لأن الزواج في لبنان ديني، ولا على الإرث، لأن نظام الإرث يختلف بين طائفة وأخرى، فأين سيتزوج مثلاً من يلغي قيده الطائفي في لبنان؟

[hannaalsayssa]

Originally Posted by Maggie

من جهته اعتبر وزير العدل السابق بهيج طبارة أن التعميم إيجابي، وهو يحصل للمرة الأولى في لبنان، وقد جاء حسب معلوماته، بناء لطلب أشخاص عديدين يريدون إلغاء القيد الطائفي عن نفوسهم.
لكن التعميم، أضاف طبارة، يطرح في الوقت نفسه إشكاليات عديدة على مستوى التطبيق، فهو لا يسري على المرشحين للانتخابات النيابية، لأنه يترتب على كل مرشح أن يوضح انتماءه الطائفي والمذهبي، ولا على التعيينات الإدارية، خصوصاً تعيينا

، خصوصاً تعيينات الفئة الأولى، ولا على الزواج لأن الزواج في لبنان ديني، ولا على الإرث، لأن نظام الإرث يختلف بين طائفة وأخرى، فأين سيتزوج مثلاً من يلغي قيده الطائفي في لبنان؟

cosmetics just cosmetics
instead of taking a proper stand and arrest te thugs of sg in the lbc case and enfirce THE RULE OF LAW..
he diverts attention
instead of working since we was made a minister to DO HE BAABDA BY ELECTION AS STIPULATED BY LAW he just ignored it.
many FPMers are liking him because he is not as partisans as it seems as the others before him.
beware just beware.

[Maggie]

Originally Posted by hannaalsayssa

cosmetics just cosmetics
instead of taking a proper stand and arrest te thugs of sg in the lbc case and enfirce THE RULE OF LAW..
he diverts attention
instead of working since we was made a minister to DO HE BAABDA BY ELECTION AS STIPULATED BY LAW he just ignored it.
many FPMers are liking him because he is not as partisans as it seems as the others before him.
beware just beware.

i am not a fan
but he has a point in this
as a first step it's a great one but we have to follow it with many other steps like:
1. civil marriage
2. Inheritance law
3. Institutional system based on sectarian distribution

[Mey]

This step will lead to other steps...

As Tabbara said, once a big chunk of people cancel their sect, the state will be forced to recognize them and assign laws for them and so on....

That was the plan of Nasri Al Sayegh who launched this movement (na7wa al 3almana), his plan was to get a big number of people doing it, thus forcing the state to recognize it, and it appears to be working...

[vicking]

I am heavely against and I support a FULL SECTARIAN system.

Look in these Secular Arab coutries.. Iraq (Saddam Hussein) or EGypt.. the Christian have NO RIGHT.
The problem is that majority of Muslims in the Arab world don't have a real sense of separating their religions to their citizenship.

For most of Muslim, their religion also have a system in itself. Social/Politics/Religions AND also Indentity are all mixed.

It is a naive thinking to beleive that you can change Muslim in order for them to get a western thinking about separating religion to politics/social.

Even today, whenerver a Muslim leader speaks.. he always say "in the name of Arabs and Muslims".
I dont criticize Muslims, but this is the way they are and I dont expect them to change. We need to adapt to Muslim thinking.

Naive, stupid and worst case scenario would be for the Christian to abolish the sectarian system in Lebanon... then in few years something will happen like a war or problem in the region.. then Muslim will start again putting their religion forward (again it is their right. no criticism). Then you will see how Christian will be small and un-heard.

The only reason Christian are there today is because they are protected by a sectarian system + fought for survival. Abolishing the sectarian system is a pure stupid and naive move that Christian will heavely pay in the long term.

I want more sectarian system - or - federal Lebanon. Although it would be great to have a secular Lebanon, it is a fantasy that will be a nightmare for the Christian in Lebanon like in all regional countries.

Barroud did a huge mistake. No one of you should withdraw their religious information from the papers.

What if 100% of Christian decide to ablosih their mention to religion while Muslim decide to keep it ? You will have a huge balance problem.

I am sticked to reality and not naive. I travelled a lot in "secular" arab countries, I saw a lot and I learned a lot.

DOn't be fooled by this fantasy and stop "experimenting" fantaisies by taking huge risks on Christian presence or rights.

If you dont like what I am saying, then travel to LALALAND... Sorry this is the reality - we are sectarian by nature and if we change, then the whole regionis SUPER sectarian - you can't do anything.

[rayograph]

Great move! Ziad Baroud should be the ministry of interior for the next 30 years!

[Tayyar Keserwen]

The LF are confused:

Kif ra7 yedba7o 3al hawiye now?

[Maggie]

Originally Posted by vicking

I am heavely against and I support a FULL SECTARIAN system.

Look in these Secular Arab coutries.. Iraq (Saddam Hussein) or EGypt.. the Christian have NO RIGHT.
The problem is that majority of Muslims in the Arab world don't have a real sense of separating their religions to their citizenship.

For most of Muslim, their religion also have a system in itself. Social/Politics/Religions AND also Indentity are all mixed.

It is a naive thinking to beleive that you can change Muslim in order for them to get a western thinking about separating religion to politics/social.

Even today, whenerver a Muslim leader speaks.. he always say "in the name of Arabs and Muslims".
I dont criticize Muslims, but this is the way they are and I dont expect them to change. We need to adapt to Muslim thinking.

Naive, stupid and worst case scenario would be for the Christian to abolish the sectarian system in Lebanon... then in few years something will happen like a war or problem in the region.. then Muslim will start again putting their religion forward (again it is their right. no criticism). Then you will see how Christian will be small and un-heard.

The only reason Christian are there today is because they are protected by a sectarian system + fought for survival. Abolishing the sectarian system is a pure stupid and naive move that Christian will heavely pay in the long term.

I want more sectarian system - or - federal Lebanon. Although it would be great to have a secular Lebanon, it is a fantasy that will be a nightmare for the Christian in Lebanon like in all regional countries.

Barroud did a huge mistake. No one of you should withdraw their religious information from the papers.

What if 100% of Christian decide to ablosih their mention to religion while Muslim decide to keep it ? You will have a huge balance problem.

I am sticked to reality and not naive. I travelled a lot in "secular" arab countries, I saw a lot and I learned a lot.

DOn't be fooled by this fantasy and stop "experimenting" fantaisies by taking huge risks on Christian presence or rights.

If you dont like what I am saying, then travel to LALALAND... Sorry this is the reality - we are sectarian by nature and if we change, then the whole regionis SUPER sectarian - you can't do anything.

oooohhhh

What if 100% of Christian decide to ablosih their mention to religion while Muslim decide to keep it ? You will have a huge balance problem.

[vicking]

Originally Posted by Tayyar Keserwen

The LF are confused:

Kif ra7 yedba7o 3al hawiye now?

my friend, please stop always attacking the LF for the war. At war time, itis true that LF cut heads over the ID.. but beleive me it is years after Palestinian and all Leftist or "Arabist" started.

LF is not better.. but not the only gulty. Last, at war time decisions have to be made such as an alliance with Israel; these decisions and alliances were at that time the only way to protect the Christian.

The LF were a very good party with Bashir Gemayel .. only after Geagea steped in, it started to become a party for thugs and doing same ugly attrocities than the "arabist" and PLO,etc.

As a FPMer, I amnot prepared to attack the LF war time unless we open all files. You can't just open 1 file.

[Abou Sandal]

-The first step was made earlier when a law decided to issue identity card,not mentioning the sect or religion one belongs to.(So Baroud did not invent the Baroud...hehe)

-The second step now,was made by minister Baroud,and consists in removing the mention of one's sect or religion from the civil status's records.

It'all good but it is still of the same nature:Only cosmetic.It looks good but it gets you nowhere really.

Because in the real world I can simply ask the following question:We first removed the mention from the identity card and now, from the civil status registers...Good...But Wein Bosrofa Hay?

In other words,when someone dies for example,whether his records show his sect or religion,or not,his legacy will still follow the rules of the sect he belongs to.

Whether he likes it or not!

Which means:

1-Somewhere,somehow,there are still public records of his belonging to this or that sect.

2-No alternatives like a civil status law,are yet given,or even proposed, to those who do not want their personal status matters,to be subjected to this or that sect's laws.

So again I ask:What's the real interest?...Or...Wein Bosrofa Hay?

I insist that this is all cosmetic, since it only gives the external appearance of change...but no real and effective change on the ground.

And i'm not a fan of this type of governance,however beautiful it might look.

I repeat:Removing mentions of one's sect from public records will not change anything in our lives,and it will not bring any real added value,especially to those who want to be ruled by civil laws,and not by canonical laws or Sharia laws.

The battle is elsewhere...Not on a higher level,...but of a different nature.

So I'm sorry,but I fail to see in this action,such a "great move",because, although it's good,yet it is still almost useless, and do not come anywhere near my real aspirations.

I definitely trust that FPM is the only one capable of fighting the real battles and challenges ahead of us,and i'm certain that once in power,FPM will not just engage in cosmetic actions,but will attack the real problems,from their roots.

For all of this,I will vote FPM for the next election,without a single hesitation.

Cheers.