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[tae]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Its an article, with an interesting perspective... You just focused on the word "weakness" and it pissed you off? read the rest of the arguments and comment on them. Or perhaps if you want to show real strength and courage, give us you opinion on what HA would think of this approach:

1- It's not the right time to talk about peace negociations, because israel is still occupying a part of our lebanese soul.
Do you want us to sit down on the table with israelis and tell them, we will not do anything again, but please give us shebaa, we are not able to get it by force and protect ourselves.
The idea of "el ared moukabel el salam" only leads to something similar to camp david, is this what you want? Fasharo.
We will never sit on the table before we get our land and become really even with them. Syrians are doing a mistake now and I don't think that ther negociations will lead to anything.

2- HA doesn't do peace negociations with israel, such things are destructive for the resistence, the PLO did that, and see what they got.

3- A good government is the best representative of lebanon in any negociations of this kind in case if it happens, it should be in conjunction of all arab countries.

[>Watani<]

تقرير أوروبي: سلاح حزب الله أصبح جزءاً من الصفقة الأميركية – الإيرانية

03/06/2008

ذكرت وكالة الأنباء الألمانية “د ب أ” أن تقريراً استخباراتياً أوروبياً نصح قادة الأكثرية النيابية اللبنانية بـ”عدم الإصرار على فتح ملف سلاح حزب الله، والكف عن التصعيد الإعلامي الذي يدور حول فحوى وجود هذا السلاح”. واعتبر أن “ملف سلاح المقاومة في لبنان بات أحد عناصر الملفات الإقليمية الموضوعة على طاولة المفاوضات الأميركية - الإسرائيلية من جهة، والسورية - الإيرانية من جهة ثانية”.وأشار التقرير الى أن “تطورات الحرب الأخيرة التي أعلنتها الولايات المتحدة على الإرهاب الدولي، والتي اجتاحت بموجبها أفغانستان والعراق فرضت هذا التدبير، خصوصا بعد أن تمكنت إيران من فرض نفسها كلاعب إقليمي بارز ومؤثر، وبعدما وافقت سورية مرغمة على دخول نادي السلام الشرق أوسطي”. ولفت الى أن “إيران تمكنت من خلال أداء حزب الله وانتصاراته المحدودة من فرض أمر واقع جديد على حلفاء الولايات المتحدة

وحذر من “مغبة الاعتقاد بأن إيران وإسرائيل على عداء مستفحل”، مشيراً الى “أنهما على وفاق تام في كثير من المحطات، وعلى الكثير من الملفات الإقليمية والدولية والعربية وحتى النووية، على الرغم من الحملات الإعلامية المتبادلة بين الدولتين والتي يمكن وصفها بالاستيعابية”. ولفت إلى “الدور التركي في سيناريو الحوار السوري - الإسرائيلي، الذي لم يكن ليبصر النور لولا موافقة ضمنية إيرانية

وأضاف التقرير أن “سلاح المقاومة في لبنان بات جزءا من الصفقة الأمير كية - الإيرانية الكبرى”، مؤكدا أن “سلاح المقاومة، هو سلاح مقاومة بالاسم فقط، بينما في الحقيقة هو سلاح إيراني بامتياز، وبتصرف حزب الله فقط لا غير، كما أن قرار الحرب والسلم لم يكن يوما في يد حزب الله، بل في يد صاحب السلاح الأساسي، أي إيران

وأشار الى أن “تطور موقف حزب الله في الداخل اللبناني، لا يختلف كثيرا عن تطور المباحثات الأميركية - الإيرانية، حتى أن إيران وافقت في مرحلة من المراحل على سحب سلاح المقاومة من لبنان مقابل سحب بعض قطع الأسطول الأميركي المتواجد في الخليج العربي، وهو ما يشكل خطرا استراتيجيا على إيران

[Mr Aoun]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

You just focused on the word "weakness" and it pissed you off? read the rest of the arguments and comment on them.

pissed-me off? lol, i was laughing at the irony. If like the article says, HA is weak, then why are you complaining? You got nothing to worry about. Why are you worrying about a weak enemy?

Shouldn't the new Lebanese government and HA, together, start peace negotiations with Israel that includes disarmament and integration within the army, in return of a basket of issues that include Shebaa, prisoners, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, etc... like Syria is doing?

Israelis have had their chance for 'peace'. It's not that hard to re-establish the 1967 borders, and let Palestinian refugees return. WHAT'S STOPPING THEM !?!?!?!?! A simple question you can't answer because the answer (if you can find it) goes against your interests. And since the Zionist regime doesn't want peace and continues its aggression, South Lebanon will remain armed, and there's nothing you can do about it other than squabble. If you were a real man, you'd realize the only approach is the MoU, because force isn't an option.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Mr Aoun

pissed-me off? lol, i was laughing at the irony. If like the article says, HA is weak, then why are you complaining? You got nothing to worry about. Why are you worrying about a weak enemy?

Israelis have had their chance for 'peace'. It's not that hard to re-establish the 1967 borders, and let Palestinian refugees return. WHAT'S STOPPING THEM !?!?!?!?! A simple question you can't answer because the answer (if you can find it) goes against your interests. And since the Zionist regime doesn't want peace and continues its aggression, South Lebanon will remain armed, and there's nothing you can do about it other than squabble. If you were a real man, you'd realize the only approach is the MoU, because force isn't an option.

As usual you evade the question and resort to ad hominem argumentation fallacies. What you say here has nothing to do with the premise I proposed, and for the record no one is talking about force. You simply preferred to evade the question...

[theMightyRedV]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Shouldn't the new Lebanese government and HA, together, start peace negotiations with Israel that includes disarmament and integration within the army, in return of a basket of issues that include Shebaa, prisoners, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, etc... like Syria is doing?

Wouldn't that be an excellent way to resolve the arms issue, along with many others. Wouldn't making a public declaration of such an initiative send the right message to the Lebanese citizen that have reservations against HA, and to the international community? Shouldn't that declaration be part of the new governments bayen? Wouldn't that be a good way to move the MOU forward and away from ambiguity?

Would HA agree???

Peace negotiations with "israel"? Now? Over 1000 kids died less than two years ago from their bombs, and the first thing on you're mind is peace negotiations with that m3affan cancerous entity? ya 3ammeh are you really proud to be lebanese? Who cares what any of the other Arab countries are doing, we shouldn't follow suit just because they are. Haven't you been following the news for the last gazillion years regarding peace negotiations - theyre ALWAYS on "israeli" terms. Palestine has grown smaller and smaller with every peace summit.

Next we have you're defeatist people saying Lebanon shouldn't be the battle ground for a bigger cause. Wlek let's forget that larger cause exists! Let's talk Lebanon only. If you want to life in farfasheh and ezdihar while ur mad3ouseen el ra2beh like Jordan and Egypt - take out the pom poms and lobby for it noones stopping you. But elhamdella theres some sharaf left in Lebnen and some people know what these peace negotiations bring. HA and their followers are more for peace and life than you think - they've spilt their blood so that they and the rest of their fellow Lebanese can live in dignity.

But before you really want to talk peace with "israel", and if you really believe in justice, i suggest you look at every peace summit in the past 30 years and its conditions. The option HA wishes to follow is building a stronger army, and thus a stronger deterrent from any "israeli" aggression, a strong government - one that wont allow condoleeza and blair on its airport with red carpet smothering them with slurpy kisses while our infants are being massacred with THEIR bombs.

HezbAllah are more for peace than anyone - but a JUST peace. Not the araf version of peace that comes with strings attached and degrades our people on a daily basis.

Do you really think the zionists are willing to accept the return of 500 000 Palo's to their land? wlek lol.

[TayyaRevolution]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Shouldn't the new Lebanese government and HA, together, start peace negotiations with Israel that includes disarmament and integration within the army, in return of a basket of issues that include Shebaa, prisoners, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, etc... like Syria is doing
Wouldn't that be an excellent way to resolve the arms issue, along with many others. Wouldn't making a public declaration of such an initiative send the right message to the Lebanese citizen that have reservations against HA, and to the international community? Shouldn't that declaration be part of the new governments bayen? Wouldn't that be a good way to move the MOU forward and away from ambiguity?

Would HA agree

Claude Salhani : Many people in Lebanon find your alliance with Hezbollah a bit strange. Can you clarify your political philosophy ?

Aoun : When I returned from France there was a real problem on the Lebanese (political) scene. I supported (U.N. Security Council Resolution) 1559 (calling for Hezbollah to relinquish its weapons). But I was confronted by a political class, which included (Druze leader) Walid Jumblatt, Saad Hariri (son and political heir of slain former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri) who said Hezbollah should hold on to their weapons. I found myself alone, against Hezbollah and everyone else, the Lebanese Forces, the Phalanges, Hariri, Jumblatt, Amal ; all were in an electoral political alliance. I was isolated. I found that there was cheating going on. Jumblatt and Hariri were promising the French and Americans that they would disarm Hezbollah while they were promising Hezbollah they would protect them.

Given this ambiguous situation I felt we were heading for a confrontation and not a solution of the problem. Knowing the nature of Hezbollah, knowing the nature of the others and knowing the U.S. and French position on the issue I imagined how to resolve the problem since no one had the necessary force to resolve the problem by force.

We engaged in dialogue with Hezbollah and agreed to a memorandum of understanding. Once the paper was published there erupted a political explosion against Gen. Aoun.

We managed to get Hezbollah to limit their demands to purely Lebanese issues. They stopped talking about Jerusalem, a global Middle East solution ... we got them to focus on purely Lebanese issues, such as the Shebaa Farms, an area I know very well having served there as a young lieutenant. Yes, the Farms belong to Lebanon.

As soon as the (Lebanese) territory (occupied by Israel) is liberated, Hezbollah’s weapons should become defensive weapons and become integrated in a defensive strategy under Lebanese Army command. And from the moment the Shebaa Farms are returned to Lebanese sovereignty, Hezbollah’s weapons would no longer be used against Israel.

Q : So how do you go about convincing Hezbollah to hand in its weapons ?

A : That can only happen through "trust building."

Q : How would you apply that in Lebanon ?

A : We have to break the circle of fear in which we live in today. If there is no exchange of trust, we remain wary of one another and it offers a permanent source of conflict. One of the first questions I asked Hezbollah was "Tell me your fears ? Tell me about your fears ?

Q : What was their reply ?

A : They said that they lived first for about 15 years under Palestinian control and suffered a lot. Then came the Israeli occupation. The Lebanese army and government were unable to offer security. We (Hezbollah) succeeded through our resistance to liberate a part of our territory. All solutions should take into account all those fears.

Habib, for the last time, the MoU is the only way out!! That is what will be placed on the dialogue table. That is the framework on which to resolve thorny issues, including HA weapons. The MoU is an open document.

When GMS, or others talk about the exact points - they are congratulated. When GMA and SHN put pen to paper two years ago, they (GMA in particular) were labelled Syrian/Iranian, and still to do this day, the accussation persists..

HA has put pen to paper. Let's see where you have SHN signature that talks about disarmement??

When you realise that you can't marganlise and isolate any sect, and those that represent them, we will get nowhere. When you conspire against your fellow citizens, you will get nowhere.

When you realise that the only way to discuss issues is with transparency, honesty, trust and understanding, we will never get anywhere.

Then, and only then, can we approach things from a governmental aspect.

Instead of approaching the issue from a peaceful, harmonious, inclusive angle, as we asked you when the MoU was signed, and we invited you to dialogue table back then - you opted for confrontation, cheered on the Israeli bombardement, serving tea, and then kissed the cheek of the one who was giving Israel (along with other Arab countries), the time to "finish off HA", whilst the country burned and many lives lost!!

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by theMightyRedV

Peace negotiations with "israel"? Now? Over 1000 kids died less than two years ago from their bombs, and the first thing on you're mind is peace negotiations with that m3affan cancerous entity?

I am guessing you want to avenge those 1000 deaths. Is this right? And if so, how many more Lebanese lives are you willing to waste trying to get your revenge?

[theMightyRedV]

Sorry i take it back, what i meant to say was, lets invite the "israelis" over for some fenjen shai and discuss how to kill less civilians with their smart weapons.

Please excuse my ignorance and lack of respect for the dead civilians.

[TayyaRevolution]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

I am guessing you want to avenge those 1000 deaths. Is this right? And if so, how many more Lebanese lives are you willing to waste trying to get your revenge?

Not about avenging. It's about respect..

YouTube - Norman Finkelstein - Hezbollah, the Honour of Lebanon

Sure, we could one day have peace with Israel, but first we have to respect ourselves, our fellow citizens, and the Horriyeh, Siyadeh, Istiqlal of our nation.

Everything else is secondary.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by TAYYAR AL AOUNI

Not about avenging. It's about respect..

YouTube - Norman Finkelstein - Hezbollah, the Honour of Lebanon

Sure, we could one day have peace with Israel, but first we have to respect ourselves, our fellow citizens, and the Horriyeh, Siyadeh, Istiqlal of our nation.

Everything else is secondary.

Respect, honor. I hear it often here. Still could not understand exactly what is meant by it.