All Hezbollah related subjects in this thread

[vegojimbo]

Originally Posted by chafic

No problem to me. That makes your comments are just as credible as Rai's.

Not really, I was just following ur own logic.

Not really. Like Aoun once said, many people have individual arms, with those, Hariri's supporters could have lasted for more than 2 days, were they really fighting. But after all, what is a militia all about? Besides arms, there is the training, the logistics, the communications, and the military leadership. FM has none of that, at least not more than FPM does.

No one with individual arms can keep on fighting continuously for 2 straight days....unless he keeps plenty of boxes of ammo just lying around.

With hunting rifles, and slingshots.

ok.

That's difference of opinions, and part of freedom of speech.

I agree. So let the loyalists acknowledge that before they amaze us with their accusations about the man acting against freedom of speech.

You have to ask the tribunal about that. It's a totally irrelevant argument though when discussing FM's attitude toward freedom of speech.

who is in control of the judiciary system? and why anything related to Hariri FM quickly gets solved while for others it gets dragged for years and years?

One moment you're against militiamen, the second moment you're defending them. But again, that's an irrelevant argument if you're using it against FM; You have to question the ISF about it.

what militiamen? Are former bodyguards now militiamen? and what criteria did u use to allow urself to claim they are militiamen? and since when did it become allowed to kidnap (yes kidnap) lebanese citizens with no warrants and without their relatives knowing anything about them nor about their whereabouts?

Hezbollah's burning of the Future TV, or the riots over Bassmat Watan's depiction of Nasrallah, or its "Tahher ni3ak"'s comments speak louder. Those are small examples.

shou jeb la jeb? what has this got to do with our discusssion?

Without a shred of doubt. It's secular, and that doesn't mean it's not sectarian.

sure sure.

It has everything to do with it. You were ranting about giving licenses to an Islamic party, so how could you be allied with one?

I am not the one who gave them the license. This was done more than 25 years ago, we should deal with this reality. However, this shouldn't prevent me from standing against the multiplication of such parties. If I can prevent the rise of new ones, why not?

So, as you previously described al Rai's information, your accusations to FM are bogus?

I was just using ur own logic of believing a story without proof. Just like u believed the fatwa issue with no evidence, u have do the same right here, at least to be coherent.

[chafic]

Originally Posted by vegojimbo

Not really, I was just following ur own logic. ...I was just using ur own logic of believing a story without proof. Just like u believed the fatwa issue with no evidence, u have do the same right here, at least to be coherent.

.......

Originally Posted by vegojimbo

shou jeb la jeb? what has this got to do with our discusssion?

We're discussing how is Hezbollah anything but liberal. Those were some examples...

Originally Posted by vegojimbo

I am not the one who gave them the license. This was done more than 25 years ago, we should deal with this reality.

What a void argument. Qaeda exists ago, so does every sort of fanaticism; Should that be a reason for anyone to support these?

Originally Posted by vegojimbo

However, this shouldn't prevent me from standing against the multiplication of such parties. If I can prevent the rise of new ones, why not?

Actually it's ludicrous, incoherent and hypocritical because you support and are allied to such parties.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by chafic

We're discussing how is Hezbollah anything but liberal. Those were some examples...

Someone saying to another one "Tahher Ni3ak" is an example of how "not liberal" HA is?

Lol...You sure know how to re-invent the word "demagogy" in each of your posts.

PS:I didn't know that HA burned down the future TV...When did that happen exactly?

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by Bejin

I did not say Israel is the friend. I am always calling Hezbollah, "Resistance" or "Islamic Resistance". You can also watch Fouad Abou Nader and Nawwaf Moussawi debat and the mutual respect between them and for the resistance of both.

I am not accusing you of being Israeli agent, but the saraya is open for everyone.

Originally Posted by Bejin

We are calling for a national guard integrating the Islamic Resistance and everyone who wants from any region and sect.

I do agree, we need a national resistance, however, the national resistance of Lebanon against Israeli aggressions now is HA. HA is a product of people, will and land, hence, HA was established by southerners and unfortunatley at the time of civil war and this should be taken in consideration. We should built trust between the national resistance (HA) secterian colour and other sects in lebanon so we can align this trust and understanding into practical decisions otherwise 14 march plan wont work and Aoun's plan is prefectly working.

"From any region" this i dont want to see in lebanon. I dont want to see forginers in my resistance and i dont want to end up like Afghani resistance a mixture between all nationalities and then a we end up like Afghanistan today. Lets stick to lebanese resisting.

Salam

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by chafic

.......



We're discussing how is Hezbollah anything but liberal. Those were some examples...



What a void argument. Qaeda exists ago, so does every sort of fanaticism; Should that be a reason for anyone to support these?



Actually it's ludicrous, incoherent and hypocritical because you support and are allied to such parties.

First, Give me one liberal party in Lebanon ! ? They are all "Shomoolyoon" .. :) and you must agree with me.

Second, Qaeda is not centralized party so that we can compare it to HA. HA is centralized very well established party and YES we should take thier establishment circumstances in consideration when no one from other sects at that time was willing to give his life away to resist the israelis and push them out of the south.

Again, i am not defending HA but we need more practical plans to integrate HA in our goverment and army.

Salam

[Bejin]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

I am not accusing you of being Israeli agent, but the saraya is open for everyone.




I do agree, we need a national resistance, however, the national resistance of Lebanon against Israeli aggressions now is HA. HA is a product of people, will and land, hence, HA was established by southerners and unfortunatley at the time of civil war and this should be taken in consideration. We should built trust between the national resistance (HA) secterian colour and other sects in lebanon so we can align this trust and understanding into practical decisions otherwise 14 march plan wont work and Aoun's plan is prefectly working.

"From any region" this i dont want to see in lebanon. I dont want to see forginers in my resistance and i dont want to end up like Afghani resistance a mixture between all nationalities and then a we end up like Afghanistan today. Lets stick to lebanese resisting.

Salam

National guard is a common proposal of GMA and Fouad Abou Nader. Regions mean Lebanese regions. So the national guard will be purely lebanese and from all sects and regions and not only from shiite sect and from the south. Israel attacked all Lebanon and not the south only last time. And terrorism hit more north, mount lebanon, beirut than south.

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by Bejin

National guard is a common proposal of GMA and Fouad Abou Nader. Regions mean Lebanese regions. So the national guard will be purely lebanese and from all sects and regions and not only from shiite sect and from the south. Israel attacked all Lebanon and not the south only last time. And terrorism hit more north, mount lebanon, beirut than south.

Ok, we do agree then on how politically we should handle and embrace HA and take HA defensive structure and implement in all lebanese borders under the LA order. Also i am pretty sure Shiis would like other sects to hold same burden in defending the southern border and face consequences from aggressors like we have seen in 2006 July war.

One remark on terrorism hits north and other areas, i do agree but we can not compare it to the one hitting the south. Be fair ..

Salam

[chafic]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

First, Give me one liberal party in Lebanon ! ? They are all "Shomoolyoon" .. :) and you must agree with me.

Mount_amel, I'm not sure what do you mean by "shomoolyoon"; What I'm saying is that some parties which are more liberal than others, and clerical religious parties (such as Hezbollah or Hezb Al Tahrir) certainly rank at the bottom of the scale.

Originally Posted by mount_amel

Second, Qaeda is not centralized party so that we can compare it to HA. HA is centralized very well established party and YES we should take their establishment circumstances in consideration when no one from other sects at that time was willing to give his life away to resist the Israelis and push them out of the south.

I'm not sure how the organization of a party or a group could be used as an argument for or against it in this context. Now regarding giving one's life argument, it doesn't prove much in my opinion. Again, groups such as Fateh El Islam, Taliban, Hamas, Qaeda and the so called Iraqi resistance are also wiling, at any time, to give their life away to resist (each upon his conviction); The act per se is not something to be lauded; The context, the motives, and the purpose -of the individuals and the organizations behind them- are first to be considered. About the case of Hezbollah, it's not a resistance for almost 9 years already, but it still insists on perpetuating war to keep its "raison d'etre". Many other parties did resist (each for a cause) throughout Lebanon's short history, but that should be no justification for any of them to have arms.

Originally Posted by mount_amel

Again, i am not defending HA but we need more practical plans to integrate HA in our government and army.

Salam

mount_amel, I personally am vehemently against Hezbollah's ideology and political practices, but it being part of the government or political system is the choice of the Lebanese people; If they elect them (based on a fair election law), then they're in. But for that to happen, there are some pre-requisites, such as Hezbollah disarming, dismantling its militia or military branch and denouncing violence.
Now about integrating Hezbollah in the army, that's an idea to be discussed, and its feasibility is disputable. Of course, a similar thing (integration) would entail a whole revamp of the ideology of Hezbollah's fighters and their allegiance.

Rgds

[>Watani<]

نواف الموسوي: الثأر لاغتيال عماد مغنية أمر حتمي

جريدة صدى البلد
02/11/2008

أكد مسؤول العلاقات الدولية في "حزب الله" نواف الموسوي اننا "لا نسّلم بالخروقات الاسرائيلية الجوية اليومية

واعتبر ان "من حقنا العمل بما يلزم". ولفت الى اننا "نقابل هذه التهديدات بثبات وبمسؤولية وإدراك لمحدودية الفعل الإسرائيلي". وقال إنه "جرى الاتفاق على مواصلة اللقاﺀات بين" حزب الله "و" تيار المستقبل "واتخاذ الإجراﺀات لضبط الاحتكاكات والتوترات وثمة هناك قدر من التنسيق الميدان والسياسي يتيح ضبط الخلاف في المؤسسات الدستورية وعلى الصعيد السياسي دون ان يتحول الى توتر ميداني

وقد سمعنا في الماضي من تحدث عن ضــرورة اعتماد الاجتياح البري وثم عاد وتحدث البعض عن نظرية التدمير من الجو او نظرية الضاحية التي أثرت على قدرة الردع الإسرائيلي

وهذا يظهر ان العجز الإسرائيلي الذي تجلى في العام 2006 لا يزال قائماً

والحال ان المقاومة باتت اقوى مما كانت عليه في العام 2006

ما هي وجهة نظر "حزب الله" في ما خص وقف "العمليات العدائية" التي ينص عليها الـ1071؟

ـ في ما يتعلق بالقرار 1701 كان المطلب الاسرائيلي هو تشكيل قوة ضاربة يعهد اليها تجريد المقاومة من سلاحها وهذا المطلب الاسرائيلي سقط في معركة وادي الحجير وصدر القرار 1701 بعدها وفقاً للنص الذي بات معروفاً، وبالتالي أي مطالبة اسرائيلية بتعديل مهمات القوات الدولية خارج هذا النص هي كمن يطلب ان يحقق غيره ما عجز هو عن تحقيقه. وعملياً ما لم يستطع الاسرائيليون تحقيقه لن يتمكن غيرهم من تحقيقه فضلاً عن أن القوات الدولية ملتزمة مساعدة السلطات اللبنانية على بسط سيادتها وكما سبق وأعلنا نحن ملتزمون بهذا القرار

ونحن نلاحظ امعان اسرائيل في انتهاك الأجواﺀ اللبنانية وخرق 1071 الـ بما يشكل اعتداﺀً على السيادة اللبنانية ولا يجوز التعامل مع هذه الخروقات الجوية على انها أمر واقع يجب التسليم به ومن الواجب على اللبنانيين أن يقوموا ما وسعهم لوقف هذه الاعتداﺀات، وأريد أن أسجل هنا ان الاحاطة الشهرية التي يعدها المعاون السياسي للأمين العام للأمم المتحدة تحدثت عن خروقات وصلت الى ما يتجاوز 400 خرق جوي وفي الاحاطة الأخيرة التي صدرت منذ أيام فقد ذكر التقرير ان هناك 300 خرق جوي شهري أي بمعدل 10 خروقات يومياً

وهنا أريد أن أخاطب بعض القوى السياسية اللبنانية لا سيما "القوات اللبنانية" التي يروق لها أن تعتبر أن عملية الأسر التي قام بها "حزب الله" في العام 2006 كانت قبل الخط الأزرق. "طيب" هذه الخروقات الاسرائيلية المستمرة بصورة يومية والتي يبلغ عددها منذ صدور القرار 1701 وحتى الآن آلاف المرات. وأريد أن أسأل ألا يستوجب هذا الأمر موقفاً منهم أم أن ثمة من يتعامل مع الأمر على انه واقع يجب التسليم به

ما هو ردكــم حول ما يتردد عن امكانية الانسحاب الاسرائيلي من الجزﺀ اللبناني من الغجر ومــزارع شبعا والعودة الى اتفاقية الهدنة العام 1949؟

ـ أعتقد ان البعض في لبنان قد جرب في العام 1983 طريق المفاوضات المباشرة فضلاً عن غير المباشرة. وقد أظهرت التجربة آنذاك وغيرها من التجارب العربية ان طريق التفاوض مع الجانب الاسرائيلي لا يؤدي الى نتيجة بل على العكس من ذلك، فإن الشروع في عملية تفاوضية يسقط عملياً الحق في استعادة الأرض دون قيد أو شرط لأنه يعلق استعادة هذا الحق بنتائج العملية التفاوضية وبالتالي فأي طرف يدخل في عملية تفاوضية يكون قد علق حقه غير المشروط حتى تنتهي العملية التفاوضية وهذا ليس في مصلحة لبنان

وتجربتنا دلت على اننا تمكنا من خلال المقاومة من تحرير ما كان محتلاً من الأرض ونحن قادرون عبر المقاومة على تحرير ما تبقى محتلاً من هذه الأرض كما اننا قادرون على ايجاد الصيغة المناسبة للدفاع عن لبنان في مواجهة العدوان الاسرائيلي

قبل عدوان تموز العام 2006 كانت المقاومة ترد على أي خرق اسرائيلي فماذا تغير بعده؟

ـ وفقاً للقرار 1701 فهذه المنطقة خاضعة لعمل القوات الدولية وتحت مسؤوليتها. وبالتالي فإن على المجتمع الدولي ان يتحمل مسؤولياته إزاﺀ هذه الخروقات الإسرائيلية. وأريد أن ألاحظ انه بعد سنتين من إصدار القرار 1701 لم تتمكن المساعي السياسية من اجلاﺀ الاسرائيليين حتى عن الجزﺀ اللبناني من الغجر فكيف الحال مع مزارع شبعا التي يزعم الإسرائيلي انها محل تنازع سيادي

مــن جانبنا نحن لا نسلم بهذه الخروقات ونعتبر ان من حقنا العمل بما يلزم. كما اننا نحضّ المعنيين بتطبيق الــقــرار 1701 على العمل لوقف هذه الخروقات وليس مقبولاً ان تقابل بالصمت الذي يشبه الاقرار الضمني بمشروعيتها

بين لبنان وسورية. وهناك مقترح تقدم به قائد "اليونيفيل" الجنرال كلاوديو غراتسيانو ولا يزال هذا الأمر مدار تقويم وبحث وحتى الآن لم نصل الى النتيجة المتوخاة وهي اجلاﺀ القوات الاسرائيلية المحتلة عن بلدة الغجر اللبنانية

ولكن منذ انتهاﺀ عدوان تموز في 14 آب من العام 2006 لم تسجل حتى الآن اي عملية للمقاومة في مزارع شبعا؟

ـ كما هو واضح فإن القرار 1701 نص على ضرورة انسحاب القوات الاسرائيلية وعلى ان تتحمل الحكومة اللبنانية في هذا الصدد المسؤولية لتحقيق هذا البند المدرج في القرار 1701 وبالتالي المقاومة ما زالت في اطار الفرصة المعطاة للحكومة اللبنانية لبذل مساعيها في هذا الصدد

اما المقاومة فهي مستمرة، واعتقد ان من يقرأ التصريحات الإسرائيلية يدرك هذا الأمر خلال السنتين الماضيتين. فالتمسك بالحق وتعزيز عناصر القوة الذاتية وممارسة الضغوط اللازمة هي التي تؤدي الى استعادة الحقوق وتجربة المقاومة لا تزال قائمة ومستمرة وسبق لي ان قلت بالأمس ان البعض يأخذ على اللغة العربية ان فيها فعلاً ماضياً وفعلاً مضارعاً وليس فيها فعلاً للمستقبل

ونحن فعل المستقبل العربي. وكما أنجزنا التحرير في العام 2000 وتمكنا من صد العدوان والانتصار في عدوان تموز في العام 2006. والمقاومة راسخة في اي تصور مستقبلي في معادلة مواجهة العدوان الاسرائيلي

كيف يجد "حزب الله" التهويل الاسرائيلي اليومي باستهداف كوادر وقيادات المقاومة؟

ـ أستطيع القول ان الخيار العسكري للضغط على المقاومة في لبنان سبق للإسرائيلي ان جربه وهو يدرك وغيرهم ان ليس بالإمكان القضاﺀ على المقاومة

وهذا لا يعني ان المعركة قد ختمت أو أقفلت

وأما التهويل بأن الإسرائيلي يستطيع ان يفعل ما يشاﺀ في لبنان هو جزﺀ من الحرب النفسية التي يدرك كيف نتعامل معها.

ونحن نقابل هــذه التهديدات بثبات وبمسؤولية وإدراك لمحدودية الفعل الإسرائيلي. اما في ما يتعلق بالاغتيالات فهذه قد حصلت وقد تحصل في المستقبل وإن إحباط هذا النوع من الأساليب يقتضي ردعاً وبالتالي عندما تحدث سماحة الأمين العام عن الثأر للقائد الكبير الحاج عماد مغنية بغية فرض معادلة ردع تحبط الجانب الإسرائيلي عن القيام بعمليات اغتيال جديدة

أين أصبح التحقيق في اغتيال الحاج رضوان في سورية وماذا عن الرد؟

ـ الصورة باتت واضحة في التحقيق ولكن الإعلان عن نتائجه ليس مفيداً في الوقت الحاضر. اما عن الثأر فهو أمر حتمي

في ما خص جولة الحوار الثانية ما هي الروحية التي تذهبون بها؟

ـ نأتي مرة اخرى الى طاولة الحوار ونحن منفتحون على كل الطروحات. وما اعتمدناه من الأساليب التي يمكن تلخيصها باسم المقاومة بات هو الأمر المعتمد لدى الجيوش النظامية، والنموذج الذي تعتمده المقاومة في لبنان بات نموذجاً دولياً تعمل أقوى الجيوش في العالم على الاستفادة من عبره بل على اعتماده واستخدامه، وأريد ان أذكر ان وزير الدفاع الأميركي وقع من أشهر عدة خطة دفاعية استراتيجية نصت على اعتماد مبدأ الحرب غير النظامية. وإذا كان الجيش الأقوى في العالم يتجه الى اعتماد مبدأ الحرب غير النظامية فإن الأولى بنا كلبنانيين جربنا هذا المبدأ وفعاليته ونجاعته ان نواصل الاعتماد عليه

ولذلك كان تصورنا ولا يزال الجمع بين عناصر القوة اللبنانية: الدولة، الشعب، الجيش والمقاومة

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by chafic

Mount_amel, I'm not sure what do you mean by "shomoolyoon"; What I'm saying is that some parties which are more liberal than others, and clerical religious parties (such as Hezbollah or Hezb Al Tahrir) certainly rank at the bottom of the scale.

Shoomooly means Totalitarian .. All parties in lebanon do not embrace in practice liberalsim from its humaniterian prespective.

Originally Posted by chafic

I'm not sure how the organization of a party or a group could be used as an argument for or against it in this context. Now regarding giving one's life argument, it doesn't prove much in my opinion. Again, groups such as Fateh El Islam, Taliban, Hamas, Qaeda and the so called Iraqi resistance are also wiling, at any time, to give their life away to resist (each upon his conviction); The act per se is not something to be lauded; The context, the motives, and the purpose -of the individuals and the organizations behind them- are first to be considered. About the case of Hezbollah, it's not a resistance for almost 9 years already, but it still insists on perpetuating war to keep its "raison d'etre". Many other parties did resist (each for a cause) throughout Lebanon's short history, but that should be no justification for any of them to have arms.

Dont get me wrong, i am not denying other parties' right to resist or thier old role in resisting the Israelis but i am saying the ideology of resisting the Israleis untill the end of occupation was adopted by HA although they have many times clashed with Amal and Communist parties for taking the lead and i in my point of veiw HA was right in his decision because the days have shown us that Communists and Amal were only focusing on Marketing side of the resistance and they lacked the spirit.

Now, the parties of "resistance" you mentioned above are all newley born decentralized and have no deeply studied structure and vision to as what the organization's objectves. They are only volunteeres who escaped poverty and unjust in the Arab world.

HA was establised in different circumstances and these circumstances should be taken in consideration and if you do so you will staisfy one requirement condition for me to go on and disagree or agree with you on the plan of integration or even dismantling HA in an Honourable way.

Originally Posted by chafic

mount_amel, I personally am vehemently against Hezbollah's ideology and political practices, but it being part of the government or political system is the choice of the Lebanese people; If they elect them (based on a fair election law), then they're in. But for that to happen, there are some pre-requisites, such as Hezbollah disarming, dismantling its militia or military branch and denouncing violence.
Now about integrating Hezbollah in the army, that's an idea to be discussed, and its feasibility is disputable. Of course, a similar thing (integration) would entail a whole revamp of the ideology of Hezbollah's fighters and their allegiance.

Rgds

You can never defy the choice of people. HA is a choice to some part of your fellow lebanese and we should respect thier choice. The power of change comes when we embrace HA, not ideologically but politically.

I am not a HA fan when it comes to ideology , i more disagree ideologically with hizbollah but i can never deny that they have the spirit of patriotism as much as me and even more. For this reason i dont see why we should revamp HA's fighters allengiance when we know they have fought for lebanon and freed our land from occupiers and yeh lets come and debate its feasiblity and i can assure you it is feasible and in very short time.

Salam