All Hezbollah related subjects in this thread

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

If the matter is to build upon if's then we already know that melody, I wasn't referring to that matter, while I did quote the "time flowing" matter in your comment, my reply was clearly on the blame more part.

& ok let us not build on "ifs", i was sharing a possibility, but forget about the ifs then.

there is no if, the goverment screwed up big time and it backfired, i can't blame hizbullah for start that mess. i hope this is clearler like this hehe

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Blame shouldn't be used in a non-constructive manner and in order to score political points, that's the gist of it.

ok 3a rassi, let bygones be bygones, but plz for the love of god also go tell that to the 14march ppl bcuz they are the ones that can't sleep without blaming us for the inevitable expansion of the cosmos, the zits on their faces, and all that is in between.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

the matter of Hezbollah's resistance survival isn't more important to me than national stability, I do not accept the gamble that Hezbollah took in order to preserve itself.

That's a debatable issue.

If i should think for one moment that HA took this step only to protect its weapons,just for the sake of it...I would eventually agree with you.

But that's not what the reality is.And that's what i previously called "oversimplifying" things.

Reality is that national stability was already jeopardized from the moment Sanioura/Rice took office.

Reality is that HA was aggressed on many occasions,for three years long,without moving, till the issue of reacting became non avoidable...or we would all have kissed national stability goodbye.

Reality is that even Israel don't care to destroy HA just for the sake of revenge,but for ultimate goals that are the biggest threat to national stability,and one need not be a genius in order for him to guess that its not just about HA's weapons or leaders....But Ma Ba3da HA's weapons and leaders,and Ma Ba3da Ma Ba3da HA's weapons and leaders.

So it's all about national stability...and thus consequently:About priorities.

There are little priorities...there are bigger ones...There are urgent ones...There are ones that you can delay...But most of all,there is an order of priorities.

First priority:Protect the country from the US-Israeli-Saudi plan...Even at a high cost.If that sounds too much for some...If they feel tired....Well,it's a daily matter of life and death for others.

HA accepted to take insults,assaults,attacks,injuries,deaths....ect... ect...as long as national stability was not under imminent danger.(And the issue of weapons protecting weapons is just "Saff 7akeh"..it's just about the national stability.That's the first priority.Period)

Again....That's not an opinion...those are very well documented facts...And very well known issues.

BTW,

Picturing the whole issue of May the 7th as an assault on "Sunnis" and inflaming the "Sunni sectarianism",is not a threat to national stability...Even if they tell you everyday that they hate "Shiaa" and they want to fight them...This is just BS and..."Saff 7akeh".

And this has be going on since well before May the 7th anyway...And i think i opened once a very controversial thread about "inflaming hate and sectarianism".

Honestly... Yelleh Za3len Treko...3a Mahlo Birou2.

In any way, HA will not take any step against any Salafi terrorist movement or Wahhabi terrorist movement...as long as national stability is not under imminent danger.

But if it should come to threatening national stability by managing to effectively import the Iraqi or Al Qaeda example into Lebanon...Then...Should it be unpleasant for some or not...HA will use its weapons once again...And steps will be taken,not mater how much they would cry or whine and talk about genocides after that.

Now let me state the obvious:In Lebanon,there is no state,and no power capable of making law and order.

The only real power protecting this country is the alliance between FPM and HA.This alliance gathers around it the large majority of the Lebanese population.

This alliance is acting with a great maturity,as it has the responsibility and safe-guard of the country,facing another alliance that is acting on its own plan.

We all would like to see neither this or that alliance ruling,but a real capable state,with effective powers,and a strong and just law enforcement apparatus.

That's one of the goals set by the MOU.

But until then,we have to chose the best available choice,even while asking for a much better one.

But make no mistake:Nobody in Lebanon acts in an isolated manner anymore.Each action undertook by anyone,only reflects the strategic goals of the alliance that he is part of.

[TripolySunni]

I already told u guys Most of the participants In May 7th Who attacked and occupied the FM military Bases Were SUNNI. Thus this is a SUNNI attack against SUNNIs who allied with the US and israel.Thus it's not an attack on Sunnis in general.

Later those Sunnies who attacked FM were branded traitors.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

I already told u guys Most of the participants In May 7th Who attacked and occupied the FM military Bases Were SUNNI. Thus this is a SUNNI attack against SUNNIs who allied with the US and israel.Thus it's not an attack on Sunnis in general.

Later those Sunnies who attacked FM were branded traitors.

We know that very well...But in these times,there is no harm in repeating it.Quite the opposite.

Too bad that we are considered traitors by those same people that we are ultimately making sacrifices for them to live in a better world...

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

If i should think for one moment that HA took this step only to protect its weapons,just for the sake of it...I would eventually agree with you.

Of course it's not but that was the major issue

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Reality is that national stability was already jeopardized from the moment Sanioura/Rice took office.

Did not ignore that but does not mean that two wrongs make one right

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Reality is that HA was aggressed on many occasions,for three years long,without moving, till the issue of reacting became non avoidable...or we would all have kissed national stability goodbye.

There is little national stability today, the issue has just been postponed and everybody knows it..

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Reality is that even Israel don't care to destroy HA just for the sake of revenge,but for ultimate goals that are the biggest threat to national stability,and one need not be a genius in order for him to guess that its not just about HA's weapons or leaders....But Ma Ba3da HA's weapons and leaders,and Ma Ba3da Ma Ba3da HA's weapons and leaders.

What is this?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

So it's all about national stability...and thus consequently:About priorities.

There are little priorities...there are bigger ones...There are urgent ones...There are ones that you can delay...But most of all,there is an order of priorities.

First priority:Protect the country from the US-Israeli-Saudi plan...Even at a high cost.If that sounds too much for some...If they feel tired....Well,it's a daily matter of life and death for others.

HA accepted to take insults,assaults,attacks,injuries,deaths....ect... ect...as long as national stability was not under imminent danger.(And the issue of weapons protecting weapons is just "Saff 7akeh"..it's just about the national stability.That's the first priority.Period)

I do not agree on using Hezbollah weapons internally in order to protect the country from whatever external threat there is - you are today saying it was the right thing to do because there was according to you a minimal price to pay for what-could-have-been, we haven't finished paying the price.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

BTW,

Picturing the whole issue of May the 7th as an assault on "Sunnis" and inflaming the "Sunni sectarianism",is not a threat to national stability...Even if they tell you everyday that they hate "Shiaa" and they want to fight them...This is just BS and..."Saff 7akeh".

It is saff 7akeh until victims start falling again

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

And this has be going on since well before May the 7th anyway...And i think i opened once a very controversial thread about "inflaming hate and sectarianism".

Honestly... Yelleh Za3len Treko...3a Mahlo Birou2.

But Hezbollah iza ze3el more than its red lines let it flex its muscles..

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

But if it should come to threatening national stability by managing to effectively import the Iraqi or Al Qaeda example into Lebanon...Then...Should it be unpleasant for some or not...HA will use its weapons once again...And steps will be taken,not mater how much they would cry or whine and talk about genocides after that.

Thank you but violence never solved anything against terrorism, it is about prevention

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Now let me state the obvious:In Lebanon,there is no state,and no power capable of making law and order.

The only real power protecting this country is the alliance between FPM and HA.This alliance gathers around it the large majority of the Lebanese population.

This alliance is acting with a great maturity,as it has the responsibility and safe-guard of the country,facing another alliance that is acting on its own plan.

We all would like to see neither this or that alliance ruling,but a real capable state,with effective powers,and a strong and just law enforcement apparatus.

That is incorrect and I refuse to consider the FPM/HA alliance as the only real power of this country, that is very subjective and pompous from your part - the only real power of this country is the people, all of the Lebanese people that are very patient with all the "mistakes" of Lebanese parties including [that might come as a suprise] Hezbollah and FPM.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

But make no mistake:Nobody in Lebanon acts in an isolated manner anymore.Each action undertook by anyone,only reflects the strategic goals of the alliance that he is part of.

And you forget once again that most of the Lebanese people today are effectively unaffiliated with political ideologies, most of them do not care less about strategic goals or alliances, that is all populist demagogy in order to rally the masses, they watched political parties/militias kill each others while they were standing at he sidelines - the Shiites vote for Hezbollah not for its ideology but because it represents just that, their community - same for most if not all of the other parties; strategies/alliances... you make it seem like people wake up dreaming of Saudi Arabia, of Israel or Iran.. as if there are people that love corruption and others don't.. that is just not true, everybody just wants to have a decent life and THAT is shared by all Lebanese.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

the goverment screwed up big time and it backfired, i can't blame hizbullah for start that mess. i hope this is clearler like this hehe

Not only that, you do not even want to blame Hezbollah... period.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Of course it's not but that was the major issue

You pictured it (HA taking action to protect its weapons) as the only issue,the final goal in itself.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Did not ignore that but does not mean that two wrongs make one right

You did not ignore that,yet you omitted it.Which gave your original post a misleading turn.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

There is little national stability today, the issue has just been postponed and everybody knows it..

I don't know how good or bad our present situation is...But i know that the alternative would have been worse.

And back to the priority issue...

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

What is this?

Think of it:

Why does Israel need to disarm HA and or eliminate its leaders and cripple the whole organization?

Which also joins this question:

Why doesn't Israel want the LA to be strongly armed and equipped?

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

I do not agree on using Hezbollah weapons internally in order to protect the country from whatever external threat there is - you are today saying it was the right thing to do because there was according to you a minimal price to pay for what-could-have-been, we haven't finished paying the price.

Yes,that's exactly what i said.I don't like it either but there were no choices left and the stakes were high...Too high for Lebanon to standt them.

We haven't finished paying?...Maybe yes...Maybe no...But again,the alternative was much worse.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

It is saff 7akeh until victims start falling again

And when did victims falling ever stopped at the first place?

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

But Hezbollah iza ze3el more than its red lines let it flex its muscles..

That's where you are unfair.

HA was ruthlessly attacked and threatened many times...even the Lahed Army soldiers weren't touched...yet you still insist on picturing it as some kind of monster freak.

I would rather care about more substantial threats than the imaginative "Bo3 Bo3" called Ha.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Thank you but violence never solved anything against terrorism, it is about prevention

Didn't deny prevention the role it deserves...But prevention has its limits too...If there is no law enforcement,one must ultimately defend himself from ongoing aggressions.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

That is incorrect and I refuse to consider the FPM/HA alliance as the only real power of this country, that is very subjective and pompous from your part - the only real power of this country is the people, all of the Lebanese people that are very patient with all the "mistakes" of Lebanese parties including [that might come as a suprise] Hezbollah and FPM.

I never said that "FPM/HA alliance is the only real power of this country".

I said that it's the only real power protecting this country,so far.That's a true fact.Nothing subjective or pompous about it.Unless you have proof of another group doing it.

And i didn't say that people are not the ultimate power,i clearly said that the FPM-HA alliance has the backing of a large majority of the people.

You seem to have read my post in diagonal mode...hehe.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

And you forget once again that most of the Lebanese people today are effectively unaffiliated with political ideologies, most of them do not care less about strategic goals or alliances,

Ok,that's something that i disagree with you on.

I think that there are a lot of people who are unaffiliated and independent in Lebanon.

Some are totally neutral...maybe like you.

But most are absolutely engaged...like me.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

that is all populist demagogy in order to rally the masses, they watched political parties/militias kill each others while they were standing at he sidelines - the Shiites vote for Hezbollah not for its ideology but because it represents just that, their community - same for most if not all of the other parties; strategies/alliances... you make it seem like people wake up dreaming of Saudi Arabia, of Israel or Iran.. as if there are people that love corruption and others don't.. that is just not true, everybody just wants to have a decent life and THAT is shared by all Lebanese.

It is true that not only all Lebanese want to have a decent life,but also,every human being.

But that does not bring any value to the argument,since politics, in the mind of ordinary people,is about "how to get a better life".

Now on the other hand,

Saying that Shiaa only vote for HA,not because of its ideology but because it is a Shiite party is the most propagated absurdity.And it is a sectarian labeling that i do not aprove,especially that it epicts a whole category of voters,as merely sectarian sheeps,with no other national consideration.

Same goes for the labeling of Christian voters or for Sunni voters ect...ect...

Finally,

If you consider that the Israeli threat is just a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

If you consider that the Wahabi terrorist threat is just a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

If you consider that the "Tawtine" threat is just a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

If you consider that the corruption issue is just a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

What can i say?...I prefer not to argue about it,and only wish if i could be wrong.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

You pictured it (HA taking action to protect its weapons) as the only issue,the final goal in itself.

Nope, it was pictured as a goal to protect the resistance plus other factors (review the comment)

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

You did not ignore that,yet you omitted it.Which gave your original post a misleading turn.

Thing is one need not always criticize the other side in order for a post not to be misleading, my opinions on Sanioura and co are well known, if it was another poster I would have understood.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I don't know how good or bad our present situation is...But i know that the alternative would have been worse.

That's assumption Abou S, we can assume what would be much worse but we know have a situation that is imploding here and there, we just don't realize it because the incidents have been scattered away from the capital.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Think of it:

Why does Israel need to disarm HA and or eliminate its leaders and cripple the whole organization?

Which also joins this question:

Why doesn't Israel want the LA to be strongly armed and equipped?

Israel is a baddie, there aren't two opinions about that - still our fight against that baddie specifically post-2000 has cost us way more than our perceived gains.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Yes,that's exactly what i said.I don't like it either but there were no choices left and the stakes were high...Too high for Lebanon to standt them.

Let's agree to say at least that what happened was wrong but according to HA there was no way out but this, I know for a fact that the two ministerial decisions in the way they were taken by Sanioura and co were wrong.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

And when did victims falling ever stopped at the first place?

Exactly but there are levels of violence, up and down

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

That's where you are unfair.

HA was ruthlessly attacked and threatened many times...even the Lahed Army soldiers weren't touched...yet you still insist on picturing it as some kind of monster freak.

Nope, I did not present any picture of that sort - it is not I at least who pictures it like that, there are other Lebanese out there who do now more than ever.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I would rather care about more substantial threats than the imaginative "Bo3 Bo3" called Ha.

There are, still Hezbollah is a threat like other parties with particular agendas are.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Didn't deny prevention the role it deserves...But prevention has its limits too...If there is no law enforcement,one must ultimately defend himself from ongoing aggressions.

In fact such defense is the one with limitations, I know for a fact that there are groups who will not refrain from defending themselves in the way they see a threat, however that won't be the antidote

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I never said that "FPM/HA alliance is the only real power of this country".

I said that it's the only real power protecting this country,so far.That's a true fact.Nothing subjective or pompous about it.Unless you have proof of another group doing it.

The unity of the Lebanese army [and the rest of the Lebanese people] was the real power that held this country together, if there was no Lebanese Army - Hezbollah would still have been fighting various Lebanese groups as we speak, now that would be the saddest image.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

And i didn't say that people are not the ultimate power,i clearly said that the FPM-HA alliance has the backing of a large majority of the people.

If by the large majority of the Shiite community and a substantial part of the Christian community with parts of other communities, yes. That still does not make it a consensus - in anyway, FPM/HA MOU is not something I necessarily disagree with.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Some are totally neutral...maybe like you.

I am an independent but NOT AT ALL neutral, you must have meant centrist -Abou S, I am totally engaged into Lebanese politics and duly exercised my voting rights at three occasions thus far.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

It is true that not only all Lebanese want to have a decent life,but also,every human being.

But that does not bring any value to the argument,since politics, in the mind of ordinary people,is about "how to get a better life".

How is politics about how to get a better life?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Now on the other hand,

Saying that Shiaa vote for HA,not because of its ideology,but because it represent the Shiite community,is one of the most absurd things that is commonly propagated.It is a sectarian labeling of a certain category of citizens,and it is insulting to them,since it depicts them as mere sectarian sheeps.

How is that? Are you saying that the majority of the Shiites that vote for Hezbollah actually believe in Wilayat al Faqih for example or in the need to establish such islamic state in Lebanon?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Same for the Christian voters...and same for the Sunni voters...ect...ect...That is just not the way things happen.And that's another way of "oversimplifying" Lebanese politics.

How is that?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Also,

If you consider that the Israel threat is a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

I consider the way the Israeli threat has been dealt with as populist and demagogue.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

If you consider that the Wahhabi threat is a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

If you consider the corruption problem as a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

If you consider the "Tawtine" of Palestinians as a populist demagogy,while true facts are before our eyes,

What can i really say?...I prefer not to argue about it,just wishing if i could just be wrong.

Same for all the above, no one is actually engaging into tangible application to the above problems which I never discarded as actual problems, the issue is how politicians are using such threats to rally their troops but in the same time antagonizing the opponent's masses.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Nope, it was pictured as a goal to protect the resistance plus other factors (review the comment)

Ok.No problem.I was just talking about the perception that it left me.My bad.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Thing is one need not always criticize the other side in order for a post not to be misleading, my opinions on Sanioura and co are well known, if it was another poster I would have understood.

You got me wrong.In no way was i criticizing you DI.I know very well what you stand for.

My only argument was about an impression that i had when i read your post.Not an impression about you.An impression that i felt the post could mislead into.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

That's assumption Abou S, we can assume what would be much worse but we know have a situation that is imploding here and there, we just don't realize it because the incidents have been scattered away from the capital.

Not really just an assumption DI.It is very much complicated to me to elaborate on that mater, but i can summarize by saying that what should have followed those 2 decisions,was planned to be bigger in deaths and destruction,than what happened in 2006...And this is fully backed by facts and reports.

BTW...Today,everyone can witness that we are in a better situation than the one before Doha...As bad as it still is.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Israel is a baddie, there aren't two opinions about that - still our fight against that baddie specifically post-2000 has cost us way more than our perceived gains.

That's not quite an accurate thing to say,although i understand very well the reasons behind this kind of impression.

But for a Southerner,the 6 years that followed the Israeli withdrawal were the most flourishing years since ever...And this was mainly due to HA's leverage and deterrence.

The issue of Wazzani water that lead Sharon to threaten Lebanon of a war,due to the Wazzani water,is one of many flagrant examples of it.

Look DI,

Our problem with Israel is an ongoing one since ages.It did not start with HA,and it will not end,if HA is gone.Nothing will stop it unless Israel decides to make a real just genuine step towards peace.

Now tensions and wars are chronic in this big scheme.They start and stop according to tactical,sometimes strategic,opportunities.But not according to HA's will to resist or not,and not according to any Lebanese will at the first place,and definitely not according to what happens or what doesn't happen on the Lebanese soil,or front.

If HA disappears tomorrow,and there is no state or Army able to protect the territory,Israel will still aggress Lebanon and interfere in it,and will even create a group to replace "HA" in order to justify its daily in and outs of the Lebanese territory.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Let's agree to say at least that what happened was wrong but according to HA there was no way out but this, I know for a fact that the two ministerial decisions in the way they were taken by Sanioura and co were wrong.

Yes this is true.I agree with you on it.(And SHN said something like that btw)

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Exactly but there are levels of violence, up and down

I can't see any difference.Lots of what was happening over those three years was much worse than what is happening today,yet kept out of the mediatic coverage.

Today too...Lots of what is happening is also kept out of the mediatic coverage.

Although i acknowledge that serious threats remain today,yet the most serious ones have been removed.

And no,there are no new ones...those have been existing since long time ago...And have been awakened and nurtered and financed and armed,right after the assassination of PM Hariri...And May the 7th is one of many excuses that are used to embolden them...But again,there is a price for everything,and it all comes to the priorities...

Yet i think that that was a calculated risk...but that's another story...

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Nope, I did not present any picture of that sort - it is not I at least who pictures it like that, there are other Lebanese out there who do now more than ever.

I confess that i felt that somehow in the process,i must have misunderstood the meaning of your quote...My bad.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

There are, still Hezbollah is a threat like other parties with particular agendas are.

I won't bother you much in elaborating on that one,but empirically,even Ghandi was a threat and represented a certain agenda.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

In fact such defense is the one with limitations, I know for a fact that there are groups who will not refrain from defending themselves in the way they see a threat, however that won't be the antidote

True.

But at the end of the day,HA was attacked and nobody could protect him,what he stands for,his supporters...but himself.

Although he seeked times and times again to avoid conflict...preached times and times again for calm and friendship....tended times and times again his hand to the other side....till he had no more choice...

When any other party will get throughout all what HA went through over those three years...I would not personnally blame it for reacting and defending itself.

I'm not saying that i am with the use of violence...I'm just saying that after a long period of assaults and injuries...if nobody is capable of protecting you,i wouldn't blame you if you decide to defend yourself.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

The unity of the Lebanese army [and the rest of the Lebanese people] was the real power that held this country together, if there was no Lebanese Army - Hezbollah would still have been fighting various Lebanese groups as we speak, now that would be the saddest image.

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