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View Poll Results: Are Hezbollah (and its weapons) protecting you from:
Socio-Economic injustice 19 7.36%
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  (#171 (permalink)) Old
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Default 26th April 2008

Why has HA always objected to the disarmament of the palestinains? Even the MOU treads lightly on the topic.
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Default 26th April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan View Post
Why has HA always objected to the disarmament of the palestinains? Even the MOU treads lightly on the topic.

Objected the Disarment Before the MOU or After the MOU ?
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Default 26th April 2008

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Originally Posted by mount_amel View Post
Objected the Disarment Before the MOU or After the MOU ?
Before the MOU, and even after but less directly... For example the Red Line comment during the recent FEI fiasco, and the fact that they in general never say much on the topic in public! In the MOU they talk about disarming outside, but not inside the camps. And the MOU never links the disarmament of HA with that of the Palestinian and doesn't talk about priorities in that regard, however many FPMers are constantly repeating that.

Here is the only text I found on the web for these sections in the MOU if someone has a better translation or has them in Arabic please post them. (It used to be on the tayyar.org, but I couldn't find it in the new design)

From the MOU:
""
9– Lebanese-Palestinian Relations. Addressing the Palestinian file requires a global approach that asserts, on one hand, the respect by the Palestinians of the authority of the Lebanese State and their compliance with its laws, and on the other hand, the reaffirmation of solidarity with their cause and their recovery of their rights, in accordance with the following rules:

A- The social condition of the Palestinians requires a strong attention to improving their living conditions and securing a decent standard for the bases of a dignified human life according to the mandates of bilateral cooperation and the human rights charter, in addition to giving them the required facilitations to move inside and outside of Lebanese territory.

B- The Right of Return of the Palestinians is a fundamental and permanent right, and the rejection of the settling of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon is an issue that has the consensus of the Lebanese people and cannot be conceded under any circumstance.

C- Define the relationship between the Lebanese State and the Palestinians in a single institutional Palestinian framework that would be a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in Lebanon in a manner conducive to proper coordination and cooperation.

D- Address the issue of bringing the practice of weapons outside the camps to an end, and make arrangements for the security situation inside the camps. This must be done as part of a serious, responsible and close dialogue between the Lebanese government and the Palestinians, leading to the exercise of the State’s authority and laws over all Lebanese territory.


10– The Protection of Lebanon and Preserving its Independence and Sovereignty. The protection of Lebanon and the preservation of its independence and sovereignty are a national public responsibility and duty, guaranteed by international treaties and the Human Rights Charter, particularly in confronting any threats or dangers from any source that could harm them.

Therefore, carrying arms is not an objective in itself. Rather it is an honorable and sacred means that is exercised by any group whose land is occupied, in a manner identical to the methods of political resistance. In this context, Hezbollah’s weapons should be addressed as part of a global approach that falls within two bounds:

The first bound is the reliance on justifications that meet a national consensus for keeping the weapons, which would constitute a source of strength for Lebanon and the Lebanese people, and the other bound is the definition of objective conditions that would lead to a cessation of the reasons and justifications for keeping those weapons. Since Israel occupies the Shebaa Farms, imprisons Lebanese resistance members and threatens Lebanon, the Lebanese people should assume their responsibilities and share the burden of protecting Lebanon, safeguarding its existence and security and protecting its independence and sovereignty by:


A- Liberating the Shebaa Farms from the Israeli occupation.
B- Liberating the Lebanese prisoners from Israeli prisons.
C- Protecting Lebanon from Israeli threats through a national dialogue leading to the formulation of a national defense strategy over which the Lebanese agree to and subscribe to by assuming its burdens and benefiting from its outcomes.

""
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Default 26th April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan View Post
Before the MOU, and even after but less directly... For example the Red Line comment during the recent FEI fiasco, and the fact that they in general never say much on the topic in public!

In the MOU they talk about disarming outside, but not inside. HEre is the only text I found on the web for these sections in the MOU if someone has a better translation or has them in arabic please post them.

From the MOU:
""
9– Lebanese-Palestinian Relations. Addressing the Palestinian file requires a global approach that asserts, on one hand, the respect by the Palestinians of the authority of the Lebanese State and their compliance with its laws, and on the other hand, the reaffirmation of solidarity with their cause and their recovery of their rights, in accordance with the following rules:

A- The social condition of the Palestinians requires a strong attention to improving their living conditions and securing a decent standard for the bases of a dignified human life according to the mandates of bilateral cooperation and the human rights charter, in addition to giving them the required facilitations to move inside and outside of Lebanese territory.

B- The Right of Return of the Palestinians is a fundamental and permanent right, and the rejection of the settling of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon is an issue that has the consensus of the Lebanese people and cannot be conceded under any circumstance.

C- Define the relationship between the Lebanese State and the Palestinians in a single institutional Palestinian framework that would be a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in Lebanon in a manner conducive to proper coordination and cooperation.

D- Address the issue of bringing the practice of weapons outside the camps to an end, and make arrangements for the security situation inside the camps. This must be done as part of a serious, responsible and close dialogue between the Lebanese government and the Palestinians, leading to the exercise of the State’s authority and laws over all Lebanese territory.


10– The Protection of Lebanon and Preserving its Independence and Sovereignty. The protection of Lebanon and the preservation of its independence and sovereignty are a national public responsibility and duty, guaranteed by international treaties and the Human Rights Charter, particularly in confronting any threats or dangers from any source that could harm them.

Therefore, carrying arms is not an objective in itself. Rather it is an honorable and sacred means that is exercised by any group whose land is occupied, in a manner identical to the methods of political resistance. In this context, Hezbollah’s weapons should be addressed as part of a global approach that falls within two bounds:

The first bound is the reliance on justifications that meet a national consensus for keeping the weapons, which would constitute a source of strength for Lebanon and the Lebanese people, and the other bound is the definition of objective conditions that would lead to a cessation of the reasons and justifications for keeping those weapons. Since Israel occupies the Shebaa Farms, imprisons Lebanese resistance members and threatens Lebanon, the Lebanese people should assume their responsibilities and share the burden of protecting Lebanon, safeguarding its existence and security and protecting its independence and sovereignty by:


A- Liberating the Shebaa Farms from the Israeli occupation.
B- Liberating the Lebanese prisoners from Israeli prisons.
C- Protecting Lebanon from Israeli threats through a national dialogue leading to the formulation of a national defense strategy over which the Lebanese agree to and subscribe to by assuming its burdens and benefiting from its outcomes.

""
We all read the MOU !

Show me an evidence that hizbollah has violated one of the MOUs articles including the disarment of palastenain weapons outside the camps ..

Salam
  (#175 (permalink)) Old
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Default 26th April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan View Post
Why has HA always objected to the disarmament of the palestinains? Even the MOU treads lightly on the topic.
Because part of those armed groups are mercenaries for Syria which makes M8 cover up for them.

There was an incident once when the army clashed with Jebreel's guys, and one of the army members was killed.

HA sided with Jebreel's thugs back then. I don't remember what these guy's reaction was.
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Default 26th April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Because part of those armed groups are mercenaries for Syria which makes M8 cover up for them.

There was an incident once when the army clashed with Jebreel's guys, and one of the army members was killed.

HA sided with Jebreel's thugs back then. I don't remember what these guy's reaction was.
why do you judge with one eye on the truth.
fatah alone and many palestinians factions are direct beneficiary of saudi and therefore allied with 14feb.

afgain, when we talk about tawteen we are told it is a lie.
if you guys and your masters are serious about these weapons, join us to oppose the tawteen and this problem is solve dwhen the palestinians leave our country one and for all.
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Default 27th April 2008

يقول العلاّمة السيّد علي عاشور في الصفحتين 325 و 327 من كتابه "ولاية الفقيه" الصادر عن دار الهادي: أن كل قرارات حزب الله خاضعة لرقابة ولي الفقيه، سواء كان ذلك بطريق مباشر او غير مباشر، امّا أوامر ولي الفقيه فهي غير خاضعة للجدل او النقاش ويتوجّب على حزب الله تنفيذها دون أي اعتراض.



Weapons can't be trusted in the hands of people who answer and swear allegiance to a man living in Iran.

In view of the words above, HA looks like the army of Khameani in Lebanon.
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Default 27th April 2008

kater kheyron ya Commodore. Last time they used those weapons, they protected the country against a third israeli invasion.

The situation is not normal, of course, since it's the role of our army to defend our country. But ask yourself... who supported the resistance during 15 years? And why the USA prevent our Lebanese Army to arm correctly? Without a well equiped army, you cannot ask for the disarming of a national resistance which proved to be efficient against israeli invader.

Ask for peace (= return of Chebaa and Lebanese prisonners) and for disarming in the same time, it's more credible.
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Default 27th April 2008

Quiw, GMA said in the past:

Quote:
Therefore, it is imperative that Syrian withdrawal be accompanied by a complete disarmament of all armed elements. Only the legitimate armed forces of Lebanon can be entrusted with providing security to the Lebanese people.
This is still true today. Just like GMA said in that testimony, only the Army has the duty to protect the Lebanese. GMA obviously wasn't convinced by Syrian/Iranian arguments like "arm the army first then let's talk about disarming militias," which were always used back then. That's just another excuse for HA to keep its arms.

Get me a statement by HA saying that they will disarm once Chebaa and the prisoners are returned.
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Default 27th April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Quiw, GMA said in the past:



This is still true today. Just like GMA said in the past, only the Army has the duty to protect the Lebanese. GMA obviously didn't use excuses like "arm the army first then let's talk about absolving militias." That's just another excuse for HA to keep its arms.
This is not a kids’ game. Lives are at steak. If the wrong path is chosen it will only lead to bloodshed and misery. We are the only party trying to find a peaceful solution for the problem at hands. What do you want GMA to do? Issue a call to ban HA from FPM regions? Or issue a call to ban Shiites from Christian regions? Or do you want FPM to hold periodic rituals like the ones held very often in tarik el jdidi?



I am really amazed at the immaturity plaguing a vast portion of the Lebanese society, are you trying to rationalize a civil war? what do you want GMA to do? We were the first to call for the disarming of HA, and we’re the first to actually have a concrete plan to go about it. We have put together a road plan for a peaceful solution, if you can come up with something better, share it with us. If on the other hand you can not come up with a better alternative then grow up, either land a hand or stand aside.


Obviously your leadership didn’t have any issues with the weapons in 2005. Even now, they are still playing the weapons card against FPM, not against HA. Even yourself, you’re not even trying to find a better solution, you’re simply using the weapons issue to attack GMA and FPM. But at the end of the day you will reap what you are sowing. So be very careful what choices you make, and what path you opt to follow, there may be no turning back and no second chances.

Quote:
Get me a statement by HA saying that they will disarm once Chebaa and the prisoners are returned.
how about a signed commitment instead of a statement?

the truth is that reality itself doesn't really matter to you. you simply choose the bits and pieces that fit your purpose, rejecting everything else.
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