All Hezbollah related subjects in this thread

[baloo]

[quote=L'arbalette;751561]These "ridicule" quantities of arms killed more than 150 soldiers and officers in the summer, amongst our bravest and finest (i.e. Maghaouir)... And that wasn't even the biggest camp... How about handling Ain El Heloue, Sabra / Chatila, etc. while being attacked by the dormant cells in Tripoli, the LF zo3ran, the PSP militias and the "Fouhoud" of Sa3d and his saksouke?
And did you forget Naame, etc..

I'm a clear advocate for all arms within the Army's hands, but the current army is not equipped enough to handle all these threats, and first and foremost, our government and system is rotten to the bones (and let's not get into that debate here)...

I would say, give us a clean, transparent, rule based sytem and government and take what you want...[/QUOTE]

Thanks and I second your reply.

your last statement reminded me of the one and only : " Give us peace and we shall astonish the world " sign AG but he astonished US without peace

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by needfortruth

I am saying how I see and analyze the issue logically without feeling any 'guilt' resulting from being shamed and/or antagonized by a hypocrite 14ner.

As for 'back in the day', I simply wanted you to look in the mirror, which in my opinion serves to devalue your argument and simplifies your intention of writing this thread as simply attack GMA just to attack GMA.

This thread has a valid observation on GMA's position that is undeniable, it is not an attack. It also has an opinion of the MOU that you are welcome to contradict.

You still haven't answered the most important question: So you think HA weapons exist , or are you interested in these weapons to protect the Christian political rights internally as your earlier post clearly suggests?

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I know exactly why i used the term 'most" and it seems that you failed,like always,to understand the essence of a post you read.So i'll explain it in other words:My use of the word "most" is mainly intended to show you two things:

1-That your wishes are against those of the majority of Lebanese.

2-That you should learn at some point to respect the choices of the majority of the people if you want to have some credibility when you suggest something...but who am i kidding...



Again.

Stop whining and try to coexist with the choices of the majority of the people.

It's called democracy.

You keeping ignoring that, really makes you look very bad.

You keep insisting on using majority and minority, most and some... This is not a poll, and you cannot simply assert you are a majority with empty rhetoric. What makes you a majority? there are a lot of Lebanese that agree with the position I outlined regarding HA weapons, maybe they are the majority.
Besides even if my opinion is a minority opinion, I can and should still advocate it, not simply just sit back and stay quiet. This is democracy.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

You keep insisting on using majority and minority, most and some... This is not a poll, and you cannot simply assert you are a majority with empty rhetoric. What makes you a majority? there are a lot of Lebanese that agree with the position I outlined regarding HA weapons, maybe they are the majority.
Besides even if my opinion is a minority opinion, I can and should still advocate it, not simply just sit back and stay quiet. This is democracy.

1-I don't care who is majority and who is minority.[]
2-Democracy starts by respecting fundamental rules and laws.Read the human rights charter,the Lebanese constitution,and this illegitimate government mission paper.They all give me the right to resist!

And you are trying to deny me that right!

If it's just an opinion,i can accept that.But if you begin plotting against me to take out my rights,and/or associating yourself with traitors plotting against me to take out my rights,you automatically fall under a category that has neither the right nor the credibility to give lessons in rights,laws,and democracy.

You people are poor legally educated/informed fellows.When you preach for something,take a book first,read it well,read it again...then come back and preach!

[SeekNirvana]

When we stop looking at HA's weapons from the outside in and start looking at them from the perspective of the current ethnic/political divisions of the country, we realize that the problem is slightly beyond the arguments of "the weapons are not to be used internally" or "we never know when Israel will attack" or the chicken and egg story of the "strong state."

Due to the currently elected political class, the political divisions have transcended to sectarian ones and the issue of HA's weapons went from the resistance's weapons to the Shiites' weapons. HA's involvement in the executive governance is also another part of this transformation.

This is the problem. Now for the solution, the MoU surely did its benefit at the time it was engineered, but no follow-up process ever picked up and today, in 2008, we're still at the same point we were at in 2006. Sure, you might argue that this needs government involvement, and it's true, it's even more complex than that, it needs national consensus (due to a crippled democracy). The problem being so closely coupled to HA, one would expect a bit more commitment on their side, that's all.

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Of course our situation will improve. Disarmament will usher the beginning of Lebanon's future. No country can move forward with armed militias. Once we all agree to not bear arms outside the context of the government and solve our problems through peaceful means and understand that Lebanon's political reform and evolution can only happen gradually and over a long period of time, we would have set ourselves and our country on the right path.

We need a national consensus !

I totally agree with you when you say that no country can move forward with armed militias. And sure we must agree not to bear arms outside the context of the government.

But we're in a situation where we need, for this purpose, a national consensus - and not only about HA's weapons !

Let's suppose that HA decides, for whatever reason, to hand in its weapons. What would it change if we don't take the right path, i.e. defining what kind of political system we want to implement and the stages to make the reforms we need ?

Absolutely nothing ! Let's keep in mind that today, we have no state, no political system, no project of development...nothing. Today, Lebanon is a complete mess and it's still a sort of entity which has to be changed into a real country.

[Commodore]

Originally Posted by elias-aj

We need a national consensus !

I totally agree with you when you say that no country can move forward with armed militias. And sure we must agree not to bear arms outside the context of the government.

But we're in a situation where we need, for this purpose, a national consensus - and not only about HA's weapons !

Let's suppose that HA decides, for whatever reason, to hand in its weapons. What would it change if we don't take the right path, i.e. defining what kind of political system we want to implement and the stages to make the reforms we need ?

Absolutely nothing ! Let's keep in mind that today, we have no state, no political system, no project of development...nothing. Today, Lebanon is a complete mess and it's still a sort of entity which has to be changed into a real country.

What you are talking about is a another 15 years war. Change will have to come through dialogue and compromise. You can't have a dialogue, as an equal, with someone who owns 30,000 rockets sitting to your opposite.

What we were told by HA is that their weapons are for the sole purpose of resisting Israel. Yet, those weapons are being used as a political leverage today.

Without those weapons, there wouldn't be camps in downtown, and the Presidential elections wouldn't have been blocked in this manner with the Parliament closed.

Also add, Lebanon is a country with a sectarian system. I personally don't trust a party that is 100% Shi'ite being armed to the teeth. Unlike the army, they don't represent me in any way. Even more, I despise the whole ideology of Khomeini. An armed militia with Khomeinist ideology and, which swears allegiance to Khamenai, is not in any way representative of the Lebanese people, not even all Shi'ites.

There are countless other reasons to disarm HA. Its weapons prevent the State from entering areas under its authority, and ISF have been beaten several times in Da7ye. Drug trade, car theft,,,you name it, these weapons help cover those activities.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by SeekNirvana

When we stop looking at HA's weapons from the outside in and start looking at them from the perspective of the current ethnic/political divisions of the country, we realize that the problem is slightly beyond the arguments of "the weapons are not to be used internally" or "we never know when Israel will attack" or the chicken and egg story of the "strong state."

Due to the currently elected political class, the political divisions have transcended to sectarian ones and the issue of HA's weapons went from the resistance's weapons to the Shiites' weapons. HA's involvement in the executive governance is also another part of this transformation.

This is the problem. Now for the solution, the MoU surely did its benefit at the time it was engineered, but no follow-up process ever picked up and today, in 2008, we're still at the same point we were at in 2006. Sure, you might argue that this needs government involvement, and it's true, it's even more complex than that, it needs national consensus (due to a crippled democracy). The problem being so closely coupled to HA, one would expect a bit more commitment on their side, that's all.

I have always stressed the need for an MOU 2.0... FPM should publicly call for an evolution of the MOU that provides more details, fixes ambiguities and provides a clear timetable for disarmament. There is nothing wrong with putting HA on the spot a little, I think they owe everyone in Lebanon these answers.

It is very troublesome to hear many in the forum providing excuses for the HA weapons on the basis of using them for leverage in internal conflicts. How can that be acceptable?!

[Dark Angel]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

I have always stressed the need for an MOU 2.0... FPM should publicly call for an evolution of the MOU that provides more details, fixes ambiguities and provides a clear timetable for disarmament. There is nothing wrong with putting HA on the spot a little, I think they owe everyone in Lebanon these answers.

good point. the MoU should be reassessed and improved if there is room for improvement. However, i strongly believe that it should not remain restricted to FPM and HA; it would like to see it evolve to incorporate other main political parties. Unfortunately i dont think other Lebanese parties are ready yet, mainly because they do not have what it takes to make that sort of commitment and honor it, despite maybe being closer to HA or to FPM from an ideological perspective. differences in political and even ideological perspectives can be easily solved with firm leadership, integrity, honesty and reliability. being professional parties with a committed leadership helped HA & FPM bypass their differences and establish a healthy relationship.

It is very troublesome to hear many in the forum providing excuses for the HA weapons on the basis of using them for leverage in internal conflicts. How can that be acceptable?!

it is not acceptable. However, it is safe to say that HA’s leadership realizes very well that using their weapons against other Lebanese is equivalent to suicide; but the real line of defense is that HA’s leadership has been displaying a very high level of awareness and maturity dealing with the internal crisis.

[ElieCedar]

Originally Posted by Dark Angel

good point. the MoU should be reassessed and improved if there is room for improvement. However, i strongly believe that it should not remain restricted to FPM and HA; it would like to see it evolve to incorporate other main political parties. Unfortunately i dont think other Lebanese parties are ready yet, mainly because they do not have what it takes to make that sort of commitment and honor it, despite maybe being closer to HA or to FPM from an ideological perspective. differences in political and even ideological perspectives can be easily solved with firm leadership, integrity, honesty and reliability. being professional parties with a committed leadership helped HA & FPM bypass their differences and establish a healthy relationship.


it is not acceptable. However, it is safe to say that HA’s leadership realizes very well that using their weapons against other Lebanese is equivalent to suicide; but the real line of defense is that HA’s leadership has been displaying a very high level of awareness and maturity dealing with the internal crisis.

Where is the degree of their maturity when they set-up security zones across the country including occupying Down Town?? what is the scope of their maturity when they intercept ISF and Army personel and take their weapons and free their prisoners by Force. What maturity you are alluding to when HA had set-up their own communication network, secured funds from a terror state, and plunged the country into a major war with Israel with devastating consequences!! Do mature people behave as such?? until when you will keep covering for them??
Elie