advanced search
Contact Us tayyar.org
 
The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org
 



Notices
The Orange Room Discuss anything related to Lebanon, Lebanese Politics, Breaking News and Live Updates on Major Events related to Lebanon & the World

View Poll Results: Are Hezbollah (and its weapons) protecting you from:
Socio-Economic injustice 19 7.36%
Israeli aggression 113 43.80%
Palestinian settlement 79 30.62%
All of the above 62 24.03%
None of the above 73 28.29%
Other 14 5.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 258. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#151 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
4U2IMI8's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,785
Thanks: 16
Thanked 348 Times in 171 Posts
Last Online: 3 Days Ago
Join Date: Wed Feb 2006
View 4U2IMI8's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post


Reading your posts and seeing you call people traitors and Israeli, you personally I'd throw out my doorstep if Israel attacked and you came knocking, no offense.
Good answer,
We know about your likes, and we made plans. We won't be needing your services. Relax.
Sponsored Links
  (#152 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
baloo's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 315
Thanks: 147
Thanked 66 Times in 46 Posts
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago
Join Date: Tue Feb 2008
View baloo's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4U2IMI8 View Post
Read well and learn why we refused to send the army.
We are the one who protect the Lebanese army with our blood. We give no excuses, we say and do.
You mean after February 6, 1984 ?
  (#153 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
Abou Sandal's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 9,893
Thanks: 1,459
Thanked 2,399 Times in 1,497 Posts
Last Online: 11 Hours Ago
Join Date: Mon Jun 2007
View Abou Sandal's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Reading your posts and seeing you call people traitors and Israeli, you personally I'd throw out my doorstep if Israel attacked and you came knocking, no offense.

You affirmed this:

"If you start another war with Israel, which brings harm upon me, then I will consider you no different than the Israeli, if not a bit worse."


So i asked you this:

"What if Israel starts another war on Lebanon,which brings harm upon me,then,if you don't defend me since i don't have anymore weapons to do it myself,shall I consider you no different than the Israeli, if not a bit worse?"


And all you had to answer back, is your pathetic reply quoted above.

Perfect.I have my answer.

Now you can understand why each time you ask HA to lay down its weapons,i will tell you to go play with kids of your own age.No offense.
  (#154 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
mount_amel's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,254
Thanks: 75
Thanked 165 Times in 86 Posts
Last Online: 21st September 2009
Join Date: Mon May 2005
View mount_amel's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militant View Post
Since we've agreed on a president, why not elect him and then start a dialogue in Baabda.

Dont know why you people are taking the presidential vacancy for granted.
Militant, We need to be clear and direct to the point. The shiats and Maronites (Aoun's block) will not accept any goverment that will not give them executive powers.

This is good, so we can have a balanced and equal goverment and we can avoid any sectarian cold civil war like the one we have now on the long run.

Imagine if we elected Aoun as a president and gave Shiats executive powers in the goverment .. Khalas . Min koon kholosna min el mashakel .
  (#155 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
elias-aj's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 1,113
Thanks: 363
Thanked 424 Times in 276 Posts
Last Online: 8 Hours Ago
Join Date: Wed Jun 2007
View elias-aj's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan View Post
The issue of Hezbullah arms is a matter of principle.

Some believe that the arms are no longer necessary from a pure Lebanese perspective. They believe that in fact today in 2008 the arms are a negative influence on the stability of the borders and Lebanon's ability to create and benefit from a neutral environment to protect itself as the middle east crisis continues to evolve. Some believe that the Shebaa farms are simply an excuse, that the prisoners issue can be resolved over time with other means and with calmer rhetoric much like everyone is dealing with the Syrian prisoners issue. Some have suspicions that Hezbullah's insistence on maintaining its arms doesn't only emanate from its desire to protect itself, in fact it is primarily driven by its desire to use these weapons for a broader regional goal that keeps the prospects of an open front in the south of Lebanon a reality for the benefit of regional players such as Iran, Syria and Hamas. Some believe that Hezbollah's weapons, may very well be used at some point in time for internal reasons, and they believe that political parties should not control militias and have arms that it can leverage politically, and internally, even if it doesn't ever use them. Some believe that Hezbollah is very interested in an Islamic Shiite state that transcends the borders of Lebanon and fear that one day It may use its arms to forward that goal. Some believe that peace and war in their country is an important matter that they should have a say in and are never willing to farm it out to one group, one sect, or one militia. These same people believe that appeasing HA is not the answer. They also believe that going to war with Hezbollah is not the answer either. They believe that isolating HA politically, and dealing with the matter of arms on the basis of strong principles and not on the basis of weak capitulation is the right way forward.

Back in the day GMA used to be one of these people.

Most people arent suggesting disarming by force, they simply do not agree with FPM's self-serving defacto capitulation in the form of a marketing tool - the MOU.
Some (many) see Hezbollah's weapons as the "biggest" lebanese issue, while this is only one aspect of the lebanese's problematics.

I think that before elaborating about this issue, we must ask ourselves :

- why do those weapons exist ?
- how the HA's military's branch could be reinforced ?
- how were those weapons used ?
- what is currently HA's doctrine regarding those weapons and the way to use them ?

We know that initially, the syrians wanted to use HA as a major card in their negociations with Israel. They used the international law about resistance to authorize HA :

1°/ to act as the lebanese resistance ;
2°/ to strengthen itself in order to become, over the years, a very efficient resistance against the israelis.

Meanwhile, HA evolved from an islamist political party to some kind of a nationalist political party, as they gave up their will to found an islamic state in Lebanon.

On the other hand, they benefited from a large support coming from the southerners - and not only from the shiite population - because they were seen as the sole who were trying to take in charge their security and the sole who were trying to defend them against israeli attacks and retaliations.

And finally, they managed to make the shiite population feel proud thanks to the prestige they earned by succeeding in their struggle against the israeli occupation. The shiite population could at least feel that it's no more a second class citizen and that it brought its contribution to the construction of our country.

HA managed to become far more than a major card in the syrian's game and this, thanks to the huge support coming from the population.

Now regarding this situation, the fear to see HA using its weapons internally is unjustified :

1°/ their huge prestige would be blemished ;
2°/ they wouldn't be a "resistance" anymore but would turn into a militia ;
3°/ they will lose the big support they currently benefiting from the lebanese population, even in the shiite population ;
4°/ last but not least, 15 years of civil war taught us that you can not win a civil war in Lebanon if you can't rely on a massive population's support (including all the sects).

Regarding the present, the issues we have to deal with are the following ones :

- israeli occupation of chebaa ;
- the presence of armed palestinian militias inside and outside the camps ;
- our relationships with Syria (prisoners, borders, diplomatic relations etc.) ;
- last but not least, the necessity to build a political system in Lebanon which respects everyone's rights, make everyone respects its duty vis à vis the state and which is efficient i.e. a system which could make us "governable" and stops the "fawda".

HA weapon's issue is to be linked with the first and fourth points. But it is clear that is only one aspect of the problematics.

As many here, I want to see my country as soon as possible, with the Leb Army as the sole armed body. To reach this goal, the only solution is the dialogue.

We have first to work on the fourth point which integrates the HA's weapons issue.

I know and understand that many consider the MOU as a BS paper or even as a marketing tool for both FPM and HA.

Though, if we carefully read its provisions, we can find a strong and very interesting framework to launch a real dialogue between all the lebanese political parties.

To be honest, as long as the other political parties reject it or refuse the dialogue, it is certain that the MOU would only stay as a memorandum of understanding between FPM and HA...even if it has proven its effectiveness last winter.

The problem in Lebanon is that depending on the "weather forecast", we focus on a single aspect of our problematics : yesterday HA's weapons, today the presidential elections, tomorrow general elections, day after tomorrow the israeli or the palestinians etc. It's time to move on, sit on the dialogue table and to tackle the whole problematics. Or else, we will stay where we currently are and we'll watch our country sinking more and more.

I don't see any other alternative. Focusing on HA's weapons and "cornering" HA (which means the majority of the shiite population) would not improve our situation, even if HA hands in its weapons.

Regards
  (#156 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
baloo's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 315
Thanks: 147
Thanked 66 Times in 46 Posts
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago
Join Date: Tue Feb 2008
View baloo's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Hassan Nasrallah is not stupid as Samir Geagea. when the latter handed his weapons he ended 11 years in prison .
  (#157 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
joseph_lubnan's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 3,778
Thanks: 118
Thanked 434 Times in 282 Posts
Last Online: 1 Hour Ago
Join Date: Fri Mar 2005
View joseph_lubnan's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by elias-aj View Post
Focusing on HA's weapons and "cornering" HA (which means the majority of the shiite population) would not improve our situation, even if HA hands in its weapons.

Regards
Of course our situation will improve. Disarmament will usher the beginning of Lebanon's future. No country can move forward with armed militias. Once we all agree to not bear arms outside the context of the government and solve our problems through peaceful means and understand that Lebanon's political reform and evolution can only happen gradually and over a long period of time, we would have set ourselves and our country on the right path.
  (#158 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
Golden Earing's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 68
Thanks: 5
Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts
Last Online: 23rd September 2009
Join Date: Fri Mar 2007
View Golden Earing's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan View Post
Of course our situation will improve. Disarmament will usher the beginning of Lebanon's future. No country can move forward with armed militias. Once we all agree to not bear arms outside the context of the government and solve our problems through peaceful means and understand that Lebanon's political reform and evolution can only happen gradually and over a long period of time, we would have set ourselves and our country on the right path.
Care to tell the audience how you want to achieve these milestones?
  (#159 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
needfortruth's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 1,201
Thanks: 188
Thanked 266 Times in 135 Posts
Last Online: 2 Hours Ago
Join Date: Fri Feb 2006
View needfortruth's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan View Post
You implied that GMA changed his position on HA's weapons because of the Christian internal political rights. So I asked you if these weapons are in existence to protect these rights? Fair enough, No?
I am saying how I see and analyze the issue logically without feeling any 'guilt' resulting from being shamed and/or antagonized by a hypocrite 14ner.

As for 'back in the day', I simply wanted you to look in the mirror, which in my opinion serves to devalue your argument and simplifies your intention of writing this thread as simply attack GMA just to attack GMA.
  (#160 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
L'arbalette's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 1,375
Thanks: 38
Thanked 50 Times in 39 Posts
Last Online: 3rd October 2008
Join Date: Wed May 2006
View L'arbalette's Photo Album
Default 21st April 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanios View Post
the ridicule quantities of arms the palestinians have.
These "ridicule" quantities of arms killed more than 150 soldiers and officers in the summer, amongst our bravest and finest (i.e. Maghaouir)... And that wasn't even the biggest camp... How about handling Ain El Heloue, Sabra / Chatila, etc. while being attacked by the dormant cells in Tripoli, the LF zo3ran, the PSP militias and the "Fouhoud" of Sa3d and his saksouke?
And did you forget Naame, etc..

I'm a clear advocate for all arms within the Army's hands, but the current army is not equipped enough to handle all these threats, and first and foremost, our government and system is rotten to the bones (and let's not get into that debate here)...

I would say, give us a clean, transparent, rule based sytem and government and take what you want...
Closed Thread

  The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org The Orange Room Main Forums The Orange Room

Tags
assassination, chief, guard, hassan, hezbollah, imad, implied, integrated, islamic, meir, military, militia, militiamen, mossad, moughnieh, nassrallah, national, officially, protector, resistance, sayyed, shiites, speech, system


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Forums Directory