All Hezbollah related subjects in this thread

[Frisbeetarian]

That is an interesting debate. I hope some of HA guys on this forum join in and give us their suggestions.
I’m not sure it’s that easy to transform HA into a secular party because its cohesiveness is religious although its achievements are national and very patriotic.
However, if your dream comes true, it will make it a lot easier on HA to take away the argument from the puppets and profiteer used to scare people unjustifiably.
I’m all for it if it can be done.

I understand how much HA is religiously rooted, and how much morale is dependant on religion and religious beliefs.
I proposed such an argument for the sake of the resistance. I believe that such resistance would multiply in force if it had the backing of most of the populace (note: i do believe that most lebanese are with the resistance but u cant just shake the feeling that more and more people are shrubbing off this support because of fear and ignorance) now just imagine if the resistance had no aspect from which to cause fear to other religious populaces, imagine the power of a unified front, ridden from the disease of religion, religious intolerance and descrimination.

Why our enemies would shrug in fear if they saw that Christians Muslims and Druzes are in a single front rising to a challenge. What a dream.

[Learned]

There is something that should be made very clear. Resistance is not a game, and it is not something that should be played with carelessly. There have been many "non-conformist, religiously unlabled movements" that tried to resist Israel and failed. Why? Because resistance requires heavy sacrifices on the part those who engage in resistance, and in order for those heavy sacrifices to be made, the individuals making them have to have a driving ideology that resonates deeply within them. Hezbollah's ideology is one that is deeply rooted in the spirit and psychology of resistance and sacrifice.

Listening to those who talk about transforming Hezbollah into a secular party is like listening to someone say "What you do is good, but why you do it doesn't really tickle my fancy. Change your identity and I will like you and accept you more." Hezbollah are not going to impose secularism on themselves, effectively abandoning thier principles and identity simply because it would put some people in Lebanon at ease. If they put as much importance on pleasing critics as they did on acheiving goals, they would have never achieved anything.

There is a difference between the separation of religion and politics, and religion and state. While stressing the importance of co-existance and tolerance in Lebanon, and conforming to these principles, Hezbollah does not see any validity in the argument that religion and politics must be separate. When it comes to religion and state, yes there should be separation ... especially in a country like Lebanon, because no one should impose thier ideology on another individual. There should be no compulsion in this regard, and that applies to Hezbollah just as it applies to everyone else. There is no difference between Hezbollah imposing thier Shia ideology on you, or you imposing your secular ideology on them. They are just as free to adopt whatever ideology they want as you are.

[Frisbeetarian]

Im not imposing my ideology on the resistance, im just raising an argument.

as towards this point:

There is something that should be made very clear. Resistance is not a game, and it is not something that should be played with carelessly. There have been many "non-conformist, religiously unlabled movements" that tried to resist Israel and failed. Why? Because resistance requires heavy sacrifices on the part those who engage in resistance, and in order for those heavy sacrifices to be made, the individuals making them have to have a driving ideology that resonates deeply within them. Hezbollah's ideology is one that is deeply rooted in the spirit and psychology of resistance and sacrifice.

I understand how much HA is religiously rooted, and how much morale is dependant on religion and religious beliefs.

Your not thinking outside the box. The reality on the ground is that the hizb cant survive without the majority of the populace supporting it. Now as to how i see things, when the captives will return and sheb3a will be stripped of the israeli hands, i bet ya alot of lebanese wont see the point of the resistance anymore (actually its a reality we are alreade witnessing), its the popularity factor thats gonna take the deepest hit. The hizb just cant ignore the peoples plees and concerns because it is founded upon us, it is in needing of our support. Ur argument is fairly denying the support of the people (from which i am one of them) towards the resistance. I have the right to raise a concern towards the resistances goals and plans, because its actions echoe across my life, these echoes ripple accoss many people lifes, so actually the resistance has an obligation to reveal nature of it conduct in the futur.

It is a not a lone organism, functioning outside the loop of our societie, its actions offer serious effects on our lives.

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Your not thinking outside the box. The reality on the ground is that the hizb cant survive without the majority of the populace supporting it. Now as to how i see things, when the captives will return and sheb3a will be stripped of the israeli hands, i bet ya alot of lebanese wont see the point of the resistance anymore (actually its a reality we are alreade witnessing), its the popularity factor thats gonna take the deepest hit. The hizb just cant ignore the peoples plees and concerns because it is founded upon us, it is in needing of our support. Ur argument is fairly denying the support of the people (from which i am one of them) towards the resistance. I have the right to raise a concern towards the resistances goals and plans, because its actions echoe across my life, these echoes ripple accoss many people lifes, so actually the resistance has an obligation to reveal nature of it conduct in the futur.

It is a not a lone organism, functioning outside the loop of our societie, its actions offer serious effects on our lives.

In the event that Israel finally concedes Sheba'a and releases all prisoners, the only people who will be "afraid" of Hezbollah will be the non-Shia'a. If Hezbollah were a Christian group, Christians wouldn't care. If it were a Sunni group, Sunnis wouldn't care. Sadly, Lebanon's politics are rooted in sectarianism.

[Frisbeetarian]

In the event that Israel finally concedes Sheba'a and releases all prisoners, the only people who will be "afraid" of Hezbollah will be the non-Shia'a. If Hezbollah were a Christian group, Christians wouldn't care. If it were a Sunni group, Sunnis wouldn't care. Sadly, Lebanon's politics are rooted in sectarianism.

I for one, am an ex-shi'a and am concerend about the path that the resistance shall tread on. Ur proclamation can be applied to a varying high degree, but still it doesnt negate the fact thats truths need to layed out and plans need to be set forth. Things need to be cleared and issues need to be resolved, we as a people need to know where we are going, be it shiaas sunnis or christians.

Lebanon's entire being is rooted in sectarianism, weve been repeating the same ******** for 400 years.

[Learned]

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Im not imposing my ideology on the resistance, im just raising an argument.

Perhaps them I misunderstood you when you stated: "it must transform from a religiously driven resistance party to a non-conformist, religiously unlabled movement".

It seems to me that you want them to change their ideology from what it is now to something that is closer to what you adhere to. Care to explain this statement?

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Your not thinking outside the box. The reality on the ground is that the hizb cant survive without the majority of the populace supporting it. Now as to how i see things, when the captives will return and sheb3a will be stripped of the israeli hands, i bet ya alot of lebanese wont see the point of the resistance anymore (actually its a reality we are alreade witnessing), its the popularity factor thats gonna take the deepest hit. The hizb just cant ignore the peoples plees and concerns because it is founded upon us, it is in needing of our support. Ur argument is fairly denying the support of the people (from which i am one of them) towards the resistance. I have the right to raise a concern towards the resistances goals and plans, because its actions echoe across my life, these echoes ripple accoss many people lifes, so actually the resistance has an obligation to reveal nature of it conduct in the futur.

It is a not a lone organism, functioning outside the loop of our societie, its actions offer serious effects on our lives.

From day one, Hezbollah was never concerned with popularity. Resistance is a course of action that is not undertaken under the guise of popularity. If the achievements of the resistance have afforded it popularity, that is fine and dandy, but the identity and ideology of those within the resistance does not suddenly become a function of what is popular and what is not-- not by any means. This is important to understand. If, in the future, it is unpopular for the resistance to continue resisting for whatever reason, the resistance will not compromise on its principles. For more on the question of resistance, its legitimacy and its nature, you can refer to my post here.

When you say that you have a right to question its goals and plans, I agree with you, because as you said, its actions do echo across your life. But this has nothing to do with Hezbollah changing thier ideology and abandoning thier religions principles. It is not the religious principles that dictate the nature of the plans and goals of a resistance movement. Resistance is a phenomenon of reacting to some kind of imposed hegemony or oppression. What dictates the goals and plans of a resistance movement is the nature of that imposed hegemony. The goal of the resistance is not to continue as a resistance movement simply for the sake of resistance or for the sake of weapons. The goal is to remove that imposed hegemony and oppression. And it is within this context that Hezbollah wants to see the adoption of a comprehensive defense strategy (including the state and army) that is the product of national dialogue. It is within this framework that goals and plans are agreed upon, and issues of popular agreement and such are agreed upon. But to assert that the driving ideology of the individuals engaging in resistance, or the religous principles of Hezbollah as a party, has anything to do with the plans and goals of the resistance is a fundamental confusion of reality.

[J. Abizeid]

That is a very interesting debate I would love to listen to and learn about it.
It is obvious; HA victories did not happen by accident. They happened because of a perfect design. It might be risky to modify it in the middle of the road while it’s till needed.
I’ve heard it before, Israel starts weakening when it no longer feels threatened. That’s when its soldiers become drunk by the beach and its residents become used to luxury.
The same concept applies on a resistance as well.
HA was born as a result of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Its purpose was to liberate its land not to turn Lebanon into a religious state. The only reason HA is Shiite is because the Lebanese that lost their land were Shiite. That should settle all the false accusations against HA.
For now, Lebanon’s issues are not fully resolved. The advancements are certainly positive and in the right direction but, we must understand that such advancements didn’t happen willingly or in good faith from the Israeli part. In other words, the resistance must stay until Lebanon becomes convinced that Israel has no interest in it such as its waters and the settlement of the Palestinians.

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

I for one, am an ex-shi'a and am concerend about the path that the resistance shall tread on. Ur proclamation can be applied to a varying high degree, but still it doesnt negate the fact thats truths need to layed out and plans need to be set forth. Things need to be cleared and issues need to be resolved, we as a people need to know where we are going, be it shiaas sunnis or christians.

Lebanon's entire being is rooted in sectarianism, weve been repeating the same ******** for 400 years.

That's understandable, but because of the very different view that people of different sects have on Hezbollah, it is almost impossible to draw a consensus view. You say that "truths need to be layed out," however one sect's "truth" will be another's "lie."

Lebanon is not yet a united state, although I highly appreciate the FPM for setting the groundwork for making it one.

[Frisbeetarian]

Perhaps them I misunderstood you when you stated: "it must transform from a religiously driven resistance party to a non-conformist, religiously unlabled movement".

Can u care to point out where i "imposed" something? By applying "it must" i meant that "in order" for it to reach what i have considered. In order for my propostion to be realized that is.

It seems to me that you want them to change their ideology from what it is now to something that is closer to what you adhere to. Care to explain this statement?

Of course, i do WANT them to have a closer mindset to mine, but u cant possibly presume that i am actually demanding Hizb Allah to change their ideology just for the sake of my conveniance....somehow i am not that dumb nor self-rooted.

From day one, Hezbollah was never concerned with popularity. Resistance is a course of action that is not undertaken under the guise of popularity. If the achievements of the resistance have afforded it popularity, that is fine and dandy, but the identity and ideology of those within the resistance does not suddenly become a function of what is popular and what is not-- not by any means. This is important to understand. If, in the future, it is unpopular for the resistance to continue resisting for whatever reason, the resistance will not compromise on its principles. For more on the question of resistance, its legitimacy and its nature, you can refer to my post here.

Hizb Allah is founded upon the support of the people, thats how it was founded, and thats how it shall continue. Do u think that the armed members of the resistance join in for the college tuition? No, they join because they believe in such a resistance and it conforms to their ideals and principles.

Its not the "popularity of resistance" that were discussing, we are a fighting people by nature and by circumstance. U must understand the reality of our history, the peoples of this area have been fighting foreign invasion for millenia, fighting and resisting is in our blood, im not arguing that. The point that i am arguing is the fact of how much valide will HA be with our lands retaken and our hostages in safe harbor, when do u draw the line and when to continue. Some say that the resistance must not falter not until israel is removed, i can some valid points in this argument, but i believe that a strong unified nation, ridden of various of plights and diseases would offer a much stronger confrontation. As towards the populatiry factor....it is a grim reality to swallow but the resistance is dependant on the camouflage created when coexisting with the people in villages in the south, alot of people died because of that but it is of deep military importance. Now if the villagers and people of the south didnt like the resistance why the heck would they care to risk their lives away to camouflage combatants. The resistance is built upon the peoples loves, and it is also shown when SHN called for men and engineers for help to rebuild dahye, if it werent for the popularity nobodie would have came and helped.

Gonna reply later, l mahal bado ysaker :P.

[Learned]

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Can u care to point out where i "imposed" something? By applying "it must" i meant that "in order" for it to reach what i have considered. In order for my propostion to be realized that is.

Of course, i do WANT them to have a closer mindset to mine, but u cant possibly presume that i am actually demanding Hizb Allah to change their ideology just for the sake of my conveniance....somehow i am not that dumb nor self-rooted.

Ok so you are not demanding but you are asking for it.

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Hizb Allah is founded upon the support of the people, thats how it was founded, and thats how it shall continue. Do u think that the armed members of the resistance join in for the college tuition? No, they join because they believe in such a resistance and it conforms to their ideals and principles.

No, when Hezbollah was founded it was not born out of a popular movement. When Hezbollah was founded, the members who adhered to its line were very few and were not part of the status quo Shia community. Hezbollah was born when the vast majority of Shias in Lebanon were not well aquianted with their faith. They were Shia Muslims because thier ID cards said they were, not because they knew what being a Shia Muslim meant. Ignorance and illiteracy rates among Shi'as was very high, their education levels were poor, leftist ideologies were much more popular than Islamic ideologies, the hijab was worn more out of being a cultural attire than for religous reasons, etc. The founding of Hezbollah was clergy and religously driven. They all adhered to a specific ideology and theology that was absent from the minds of the vast, vast majority of the Shia Muslims at the time. Even today, the armed members of the resistance are a select few cream de la creme from the tub of milk. They do not reflect the average Shia Muslim in Lebanon. And yes, you are correct in stating that they join because they believe in such a resistance and it confroms to their ideals and principles. Now if Hezbollah were to do what you are suggesting, i.e. become a "non-conformist, religiously unlabled movement", then those who are the members and fighters would no longer identify with the ideology and principles of such a resistance. In seeking to appease the popular masses, it would alienate its core constituancy by abandoning its identity.

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Its not the "popularity of resistance" that were discussing, we are a fighting people by nature and by circumstance. U must understand the reality of our history, the peoples of this area have been fighting foreign invasion for millenia, fighting and resisting is in our blood, im not arguing that. The point that i am arguing is the fact of how much valide will HA be with our lands retaken and our hostages in safe harbor, when do u draw the line and when to continue. Some say that the resistance must not falter not until israel is removed, i can some valid points in this argument, but i believe that a strong unified nation, ridden of various of plights and diseases would offer a much stronger confrontation. As towards the populatiry factor....it is a grim reality to swallow but the resistance is dependant on the camouflage created when coexisting with the people in villages in the south, alot of people died because of that but it is of deep military importance. Now if the villagers and people of the south didnt like the resistance why the heck would they care to risk their lives away to camouflage combatants. The resistance is built upon the peoples loves, and it is also shown when SHN called for men and engineers for help to rebuild dahye, if it werent for the popularity nobodie would have came and helped.

Gonna reply later, l mahal bado ysaker :P.

Who is "we" when you say "we" are a fighting people by nature and circumstance? When Israel invaded in 1982, it was met with rice and flowers by some. I do not belive that such a general statement can be made. There have been many resistance movements. Some arab nationalists, some communists, some socialists, some Christian, some Muslim, etc. It's not a question of whether there is or isn't a certian history of resistance. The point here is that Hezbollah's model has thrived whereas other models have dwindled. And the credit for this lies in thier identity and ideology. A resistance movement needs a driving ideology. Without such a driving ideology, it will never survive.

You again go back to the point of validity and link it to popularity. With all due respect, popularity and validity are two exclusive concepts. When SHN says "remedy the causes and the consequences will remedy themselves", he is getting at the gist of the notion. The resistance exists because of a number of causes, and as long as those causes continue to exist, the resistance's reaction is justified -- whether it is popular or not.


As for popularity among Southerners, I really don't get how you can possibly think that Hezbollah needs to change its ideology in order to preserve preserve popularity. If anything, the transformation of the Shia community as a whole in terms of religous awareness and ideological identification, from a former state of illiteracy and ignorance, has been a direct consequence of Hezbollah's conditioning of the Shia community with a psychology and culture of resistance that is characterized by an ideology that is distinctly derived from Shia Islam's history and principles. You want Hezbollah to denounce that all after the fact and aleinate its core constituancy? If Hezbollah were to ever do such a thing, it would no longer be Hezbollah. I would be something else. And it wouldn't have the support of the core supporters of Hezbollah.

It is not necessary for Hezbollah to change its ideology so that it can garner support from non-Shias or preserve that support. It is understandable that Christians or Sunnis whose villages were liberated would have an appreciation for the resistance. It is understandable that the idea of resisting against aggression, liberating land, and freeing prisoners are national causes and achievements that resonate with people on a national level. This in itself is enough, and Hezbollah never asked for any of this support or appreciation anyway. It is not something that they are seeking, nor are they concerned with it. They have absolutely no interest in acting on the basis of garnering support or using their acheivements on a national scale for internal ends. This is not the basis upon which the resistance makes its calculations and operates.