advanced search
Contact Us tayyar.org
 
The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org
 



Notices
The Orange Room Discuss anything related to Lebanon, Lebanese Politics, Breaking News and Live Updates on Major Events related to Lebanon & the World

View Poll Results: Are Hezbollah (and its weapons) protecting you from:
Socio-Economic injustice 19 7.36%
Israeli aggression 113 43.80%
Palestinian settlement 79 30.62%
All of the above 62 24.03%
None of the above 73 28.29%
Other 14 5.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 258. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1021 (permalink)) Old
 
Ashrafieh_101's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 423
Thanks: 260
Thanked 133 Times in 103 Posts
Last Online: 29th September 2008
Join Date: Thu May 2008
View Ashrafieh_101's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abou Sandal View Post
I think that you are unsatisfied by the government composition and that you will try hard to block the formation of the government under this pretext.

Prove otherwise if you can.
Your response is off topic! I thought we were talking about the bayen el wizari!
Ba3den the opposition took over a month to agree, give the mouwelet a few days! They have to agree among themselves based on what the opposition got. They couldn't decide a priori who gets what since the opposition's demands were changing by the hour...
Sponsored Links
  (#1022 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
fidelio's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 3,824
Thanks: 734
Thanked 552 Times in 345 Posts
Last Online: 16 Hours Ago
Join Date: Fri Jan 2007
View fidelio's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

The governmental manifesto should be easier than the portfolio bazaar if only they would keep the discussions away from the media.
I would say that a reference to the "Resistance", its role, and a dialogue to reach an agreement on a national defensive strategy is most likely in the bank.
  (#1023 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Supporter
 
Abou Sandal's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 9,893
Thanks: 1,459
Thanked 2,399 Times in 1,497 Posts
Last Online: 12 Hours Ago
Join Date: Mon Jun 2007
View Abou Sandal's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashrafieh_101 View Post
Your response is off topic! I thought we were talking about the bayen el wizari!
I am still talking about the governmental mission dude.
  (#1024 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
4U2IMI8's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,785
Thanks: 16
Thanked 348 Times in 171 Posts
Last Online: 3 Days Ago
Join Date: Wed Feb 2006
View 4U2IMI8's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

البيان الوزاري اتفق عليه قبل البدء في مشاورات تشكيل الحكومة، وبالتحديد في الدوحة. سيكون كالبيان السابق مع بعض التعديلات كاحترام القرارات الدولية وضرورة الاسراع في مناقشة الاستراتيجية الدفاعية
  (#1025 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
roch10452's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 861
Thanks: 457
Thanked 135 Times in 110 Posts
Last Online: 1 Hour Ago
Join Date: Sun Mar 2008
View roch10452's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

respecting the international resolutions? that is 1559 and 1701?
what does Hezbo say about that?
  (#1026 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
TayyaRevolution's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 1,842
Thanks: 95
Thanked 355 Times in 240 Posts
Last Online: 3 Days Ago
Join Date: Sat Apr 2008
View TayyaRevolution's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by roch10452 View Post
respecting the international resolutions? that is 1559 and 1701?
what does Hezbo say about that?
The answer is in the MoU. Let's start from the beginning. GMA's position is reflected in the MoU, which also has SHN's signature to it. So that means both are in agreement to not only all articles agreed upon, but the transparency, honesty, understanding and mutual respect it was built on.

A peaceful solution to the problem in accordance to everyone, was there for the taking?! Not only did it deal with the weapons issue, but it went further and dealt with 9 other articles of national interest!

So why wasn't the MoU given a chance, rather then blasted at the first minute? Instead we were labelled Syrian/Iranian mercenaries. Instead you decided continued isolation and confrontation was the better alternative.


The birth of the MoU:

...

Claude Salhani : Many people in Lebanon find your alliance with Hezbollah a bit strange. Can you clarify your political philosophy ?

Aoun : When I returned from France there was a real problem on the Lebanese (political) scene. I supported (U.N. Security Council Resolution) 1559 (calling for Hezbollah to relinquish its weapons). But I was confronted by a political class, which included (Druze leader) Walid Jumblatt, Saad Hariri (son and political heir of slain former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri) who said Hezbollah should hold on to their weapons. I found myself alone, against Hezbollah and everyone else, the Lebanese Forces, the Phalanges, Hariri, Jumblatt, Amal ; all were in an electoral political alliance. I was isolated. I found that there was cheating going on. Jumblatt and Hariri were promising the French and Americans that they would disarm Hezbollah while they were promising Hezbollah they would protect them.

Given this ambiguous situation I felt we were heading for a confrontation and not a solution of the problem. Knowing the nature of Hezbollah, knowing the nature of the others and knowing the U.S. and French position on the issue I imagined how to resolve the problem since no one had the necessary force to resolve the problem by force.

We engaged in dialogue with Hezbollah and agreed to a memorandum of understanding. Once the paper was published there erupted a political explosion against Gen. Aoun.

We managed to get Hezbollah to limit their demands to purely Lebanese issues. They stopped talking about Jerusalem, a global Middle East solution ... we got them to focus on purely Lebanese issues, such as the Shebaa Farms, an area I know very well having served there as a young lieutenant. Yes, the Farms belong to Lebanon.

As soon as the (Lebanese) territory (occupied by Israel) is liberated, Hezbollah’s weapons should become defensive weapons and become integrated in a defensive strategy under Lebanese Army command. And from the moment the Shebaa Farms are returned to Lebanese sovereignty, Hezbollah’s weapons would no longer be used against Israel.

Q : So how do you go about convincing Hezbollah to hand in its weapons ?

A : That can only happen through "trust building."

Q : How would you apply that in Lebanon ?

A : We have to break the circle of fear in which we live in today. If there is no exchange of trust, we remain wary of one another and it offers a permanent source of conflict. One of the first questions I asked Hezbollah was "Tell me your fears ? Tell me about your fears ?

Q : What was their reply ?

A : They said that they lived first for about 15 years under Palestinian control and suffered a lot. Then came the Israeli occupation. The Lebanese army and government were unable to offer security. We (Hezbollah) succeeded through our resistance to liberate a part of our territory. All solutions should take into account all those fears.

......

An excerpt from another interview:

Aoun: We support all the UN resolutions and we seek to implement a solution to the issue of the weapons of Hizbullah through a process in which not only the Lebanese people are involved, but also Israel, the UN and the international community as a whole. We have said that after the liberation of the Shebaa farms and the prisoners held by both sides, we can restore calm on the border and deal with the issue. Only trust among the Lebanese factions will enable them to solve this issue. The weapons should be dealt with by uprooting the causes for their existence. But of course, we first have to deter the Israeli threats - Israel has no right to violate air space all the time and is able to conduct a raid anytime against any target.

- I suggested a solution after I asked the international community to come up with a solution of their own. I don’t understand why it is not allowed to give a peaceful solution a chance.

....


And the end result, the solution, which has SHN's signature on it:


MOU:


Introduction

The first meeting ever between the head of the Change and Reform Bloc, MP Michel Aoun, and the Secretary General of Hezbollah, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, took place today afternoon at St. Michael Church in Shiah in the presence of Mahmoud Comati and Ghaleb Abu-Zeinab from Hezbollah, and Gebran Bassil, Ziad Abs and Fuad Al-Ashkar from the Free Patriotic Movement (FPM). The meeting was held under high security measures around the periphery of the church.

The meeting lasted 3 hours, at the end of which a joint memorandum of understanding between the FPM and Hezbollah was made public and read by Abu-Zeinab and Bassil. The following is the text the memorandum dated February 6, 2006

1 – Dialogue.

National dialogue is the only avenue to find solutions for Lebanon’s crises on stable and firm bases that are a reflection of a unifying consensual will. The following conditions must obtain to ensure its success:


A- The participation of the parties that have a political, popular and national standing with a round table as a venue.

B- Transparency, openness, and placing the interests of the nation above any other interest, through the reliance on self-driven will, and a free and committed Lebanese decision-making.

C- Include all issues of a national character and requiring general concordance.


2 – Consensual Democracy.

Consensual democracy remains the fundamental basis for governance in Lebanon, because it is the effective embodiment of the spirit of the Constitution and of the essence of the pact of shared coexistence. From this standpoint, any approach for resolving national issues according to a majority- minority formula remains dependent on historic and social conditions for practicing effective democracy in which the citizen becomes a self standing value.

3 – The Electoral Law.

The reform and systematization of political life in Lebanon require the adoption of a modern electoral law (in which proportional representation may be one of its effective variations) that guarantees the accuracy and equity of popular representation and contributes in accomplishing the following items:


A- Actuate and develop the role of the political parties in achieving civil society.

B- Limit the influence of political money and sectarian fanaticisms.

C- Make available equal opportunities for using the various media channels.

D- Secure the required means for enabling the expatriate Lebanese to exercise their voting rights. We demand the Government and Parliament to commit to the shortest possible deadline to enact the required electoral law.


4– Building the State.

Building a modern State that enjoys the trust of its citizens and is able to meet their needs and aspirations, and provide them with the sense of security and safety as to their present and future, requires that State to be erected on strong and solid foundations that make it impervious to destabilization and periodic crises whenever it is threatened by difficult circumstances or changes. This requires adhering to the following:

A- Adopt the standards of justice, equality, parity, merit and integrity.

B- An equitable and impartial judiciary is the essential condition for creating a State of rights,laws and institutions, which is based on:


a- The complete independence of the judiciary as an institution and the selection of judges with recognized competence in order to activate the work of all courts

b- Respect for the actions of the constitutional institutions; shelter them from political polarization; ensure the continuity of their work; and prevent their breakdown (the Judicial Council and the Constitutional Council). What happened in the Constitutional Council is an example of such a breakdown, particularly with respect to the issue of parliamentary challenges submitted to it and which have not yet been decided.

c- Address corruption at the root, because temporary and pacifying solutions are no longer sufficient. They have in fact become a simple exercise in deception that the beneficiaries of corruption at all levels carry out to perpetuate the theft of the resources of the State and the citizen. This requires:

I- Activate the financial and administrative control and inspection institutions and boards, with the mandate to separate them from the executive power in order to guarantee that their work is not politicized.

II- Conduct a complete survey of the pockets of corruption, in preparation for opening judicial investigations that ensure the prosecution of those responsible for corruption, and return the embezzled public funds.

III- Legislate the required laws that contribute to combating corruption in all its aspects and demand of the government that Lebanon signs on the United Nations Treaty for Combating Corruption.

IV- Act toward a global administrative reform that ensures that the right person is assigned to the right position, particularly those whose merit, competence and integrity are recognized. This can be accomplished by empowering the Civil Service Council to assume its full prerogatives. Timeframes and deadlines need to be set for actions on these issues because the factor of time has become critical. The matter requires solutions that are simultaneously judicious and rapid and that use the time factor to their advantage instead of the corrupt using it to theirs.


5– The Missing During the War.

To turn the page of the past and have global national reconciliation, all the outstanding files of the war must be closed. The file of the missing in the war requires a stance of responsibility to end this anomalous situation and put the parents’ minds at ease. The parents cannot be expected to forgive without respecting their rights to know the fate of their children. Which is why we ask all the forces and parties that participated in the war for their full cooperation to uncover the fate of the missing and the locations of the mass graves.

6– The Lebanese in Israel.

Whereas both sides are convinced that the presence of Lebanese citizens in their homeland is better than their presence in enemy territory, a resolution of the question of the Lebanese residing in Israel requires a speedy action to ensure their return to their country while taking in consideration all the political, security and livelihood circumstances surrounding the matter. On this basis, we issue a call to them to promptly return to their country at the basis of the call by His Eminence Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah following the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon and the speech delivered by General Michel Aoun at the first assembly of Parliament.

7– The Security Question.

First- political assassinations:

Any form of political assassination is condemned and rejected because of its violation of basic human rights, the most important foundations of the existence of Lebanon represented by difference and diversity, and the essence of democracy and its practice. Therefore, to the extent that we condemn the assassination of His Excellency the martyr President Rafik Hariri and all assassinations and assassination attempts that preceded and followed it leading to the assassination of MP Gibran Tueni, we emphasize the importance of proceeding forward with the investigation according to the officially-approved mechanisms in order to uncover the truth, which is an issue that cannot be subjected to any compromise because it is a required condition to achieve justice and serve it against the criminals, as well as to bring an end to the cycle of murder and bombings. For this reason, it is an obligation to distance these issues from any attempts at politically exploiting them, which would harm their essence and the essence of justice that must remain above any political conflicts or disagreements.

Second- Security Reforms:

A reform of the Security Services is an inseparable part of the broader reform process of the basic State institutions, and to rebuild them on sound and solid bases. Given the delicate position that the Security Services occupy in protecting and defending a stable security environment in the country against any breaches or threats, the process of building those Services must be given special attention. As such, the government is hereby urged to assume its full responsibilities as follows:


A- Put in place an integrated security plan based on the centralization of decision in security matters and a clear definition of enemy versus friend, the foci of security threats, including the question of terrorism and security breaches that must be addressed.

B- Neutralize the Security Services against any political considerations and patronages, such that their full loyalty is to the nation alone.

C- Assign the responsibility of the Services to personalities with recognized competence and integrity.

D- Security measures must not be in conflict with the basic freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, with first the freedom of expression and political action that do not threaten security and public stability.

E- Constitute a joint Parliamentary-Security Services committee that would oversee and control the reform and building processes of the Security Services.


8– Lebanese-Syrian Relations.

The establishment of mutual and sound Lebanese-Syrian relations requires a review of the past experience and drawing the necessary conclusions and lessons in order to avoid the accumulated mistakes, blemishes and breaches. This is in order to pave the way to re-cast these relations on clear bases on parity and the full and mutual respect for the sovereignty and independence of both States, and on the grounds of a rejection of a return to any form of foreign tutelage.

Therefore, it is required:

A- That the Lebanese government take all legal measures and procedures pertaining to the assertion of the Lebanese identity of the Shebaa Farms and present these to the United Nations, after the Syrian State has declared the Shebaa Farms to be fully Lebanese in identity.

B- Delineate the borders between Lebanon and Syria, while eliminating the tensions that could break down the process, as both Lebanon and Syria have a long-standing need to complete this process as part of an agreement by the two countries.

C- Demand the Syrian State to fully cooperate with the Lebanese State in order to uncover the fate of the Lebanese detainees in Syrian prisons in the absence of provocation, tension and negativity that would hinder a positive resolution to this file.

D- Establish diplomatic relations between the two countries and provide appropriate conditions for them, which would move the relation from one between individuals and groups to one between institutions in order to secure their permanence and constancy.


9– Lebanese-Palestinian Relations.

Addressing the Palestinian file requires a global approach that asserts, on one hand, the respect by the Palestinians of the authority of the Lebanese State and their compliance with its laws, and on the other hand, the reaffirmation of solidarity with their cause and their recovery of their rights, in accordance with the following rules:

A- The social condition of the Palestinians requires a strong attention to improving their living conditions and securing a decent standard for the bases of a dignified human life according to the mandates of bilateral cooperation and the human rights charter, in addition to giving them the required facilitations to move inside and outside of Lebanese territory.

B- The Right of Return of the Palestinians is a fundamental and permanent right, and the rejection of the settling of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon is an issue that has the consensus of the Lebanese people and cannot be conceded under any circumstance.

C- Define the relationship between the Lebanese State and the Palestinians in a single institutional Palestinian framework that would be a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in Lebanon in a manner conducive to proper coordination and cooperation.

D- Address the issue of bringing the practice of weapons outside the camps to an end, and make arrangements for the security situation inside the camps. This must be done as part of a serious, responsible and close dialogue between the Lebanese government and the Palestinians, leading to the exercise of the State’s authority and laws over all Lebanese territory.


10– The Protection of Lebanon and Preserving its Independence and Sovereignty.

The protection of Lebanon and the preservation of its independence and sovereignty are a national public responsibility and duty, guaranteed by international treaties and the Human Rights Charter, particularly in confronting any threats or dangers from any source that could harm them.

Therefore, carrying arms is not an objective in itself. Rather it is an honorable and sacred means that is exercised by any group whose land is occupied, in a manner identical to the methods of political resistance. In this context, Hezbollah’s weapons should be addressed as part of a global approach that falls within two bounds:

The first bound is the reliance on justifications that meet a national consensus for keeping the weapons, which would constitute a source of strength for Lebanon and the Lebanese people, and the other bound is the definition of objective conditions that would lead to a cessation of the reasons and justifications for keeping those weapons. Since Israel occupies the Shebaa Farms, imprisons Lebanese resistance members and threatens Lebanon, the Lebanese people should assume their responsibilities and share the burden of protecting Lebanon, safeguarding its existence and security and protecting its independence and sovereignty by:


A- Liberating the Shebaa Farms from the Israeli occupation.

B- Liberating the Lebanese prisoners from Israeli prisons.

C- Protecting Lebanon from Israeli threats through a national dialogue leading to the formulation of a national defense strategy over which the Lebanese agree to and subscribe to by assuming its burdens and benefiting from its outcomes.
  (#1027 (permalink)) Old
 
Ashrafieh_101's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 423
Thanks: 260
Thanked 133 Times in 103 Posts
Last Online: 29th September 2008
Join Date: Thu May 2008
View Ashrafieh_101's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by roch10452 View Post
respecting the international resolutions? that is 1559 and 1701?
what does Hezbo say about that?
Walaw! It's all in the MOU?
How's the weather going to be like tomorrow you ask? Check the MOU!
It's a very deep document that has answers to every question you might have!
  (#1028 (permalink)) Old
Orange Room Moderator
 
Zghertewe's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 695
Thanks: 91
Thanked 190 Times in 149 Posts
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago
Join Date: Wed Dec 2005
View Zghertewe's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashrafieh_101 View Post
Walaw! It's all in the MOU?
How's the weather going to be like tomorrow you ask? Check the MOU!
It's a very deep document that has answers to every question you might have!

Did you even read it?...and what does bay bayyya and your ouwet el lebnaniye has to offer instead of the MoU?.

For your weather inquiry you can check National and Local Weather Forecast, Radar, Map and Report
  (#1029 (permalink)) Old
 
Ashrafieh_101's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 423
Thanks: 260
Thanked 133 Times in 103 Posts
Last Online: 29th September 2008
Join Date: Thu May 2008
View Ashrafieh_101's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zghertewe View Post
Did you even read it?...and what does bay bayyya and your ouwet el lebnaniye has to offer instead of the MoU?.

For your weather inquiry you can check National and Local Weather Forecast, Radar, Map and Report
Yes I did read it. It reminded a lot of the ittifaq al taef just like the Christian gathering document. It all sounds so good until you start implementing it...
If Shebaa is liberated and HA insists on keeping its weapons they would be in clear violation of the MOU. You think they give a ****?
  (#1030 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
vegojimbo's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 9,718
Thanks: 68
Thanked 580 Times in 394 Posts
Last Online: 3 Hours Ago
Join Date: Wed May 2006
View vegojimbo's Photo Album
Default 8th July 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashrafieh_101 View Post
Yes I did read it. It reminded a lot of the ittifaq al taef just like the Christian gathering document. It all sounds so good until you start implementing it...
but isn't LF still pro-Taef?
Closed Thread

  The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org The Orange Room Main Forums The Orange Room

Tags
assassination, chief, guard, hassan, hezbollah, imad, implied, integrated, islamic, meir, military, militia, militiamen, mossad, moughnieh, nassrallah, national, officially, protector, resistance, sayyed, shiites, speech, system


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Forums Directory