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Default Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 30th January 2006

First I would like to thank BM for the initiative and for Bodhi making the first crucial steps!

In this topic I would like to see people getting together around a virtual table, and engaging into an illuminating dialogue. The theme is widely interpreted, the question is mainly whether we can assume the statement that: technology divides. What have we achieved by technology and science in mankind's history? The enormous progress we accomplished during the last 100 years in the area of science, is elevating and terrifying at the same time. Can we sacrifice every moralities on the altar of science? Are there any constrains or limits we shall keep in mind regarding the technological progress, or the endless opportunities shall be our credo? And what about the dark side of science and technology, modern warefares based on the latest technologies?
How aware are we about the challenges of the digital divide in the world, the ICT sector as the main influencing factor of global economy, or biotechnology and eugenics which are laying the new pathes and directions for science.

I raised many questions, I would like to hear your overall opinion first about the topic, and within this wide range of area, we can choose then which theme to discuss, and a specific article as a guidline.
In general we shall seek an answer to the main topic, whether technology really divides (we can prove the opposite as well, that it unites), we can also come up with some country specific suggestions. (Lebanon? )

So what do you think? I'm looking forward to your opinions!
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 1st February 2006

Very interesting and contraversial subject Stella.

I have read an interesting article that shows the contraversy of technology vs ethics: it is about "cloning the man of shroud".

For those of you who don't know who the "man of shroud" is (or is assumed to be), I can assure you that just the idea of cloning him is deadly scary !!

I suggest that we all read this "scary" article and discuss it: I guess it kind of sums up the subject chosen by Stella.

If you guys are interested, please PM or email me so that I can share this aticle with you.

Cheers !
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 1st February 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by walid97
Very interesting and contraversial subject Stella.

I have read an interesting article that shows the contraversy of technology vs ethics: it is about "cloning the man of shroud".

For those of you who don't know who the "man of shroud" is (or is assumed to be), I can assure you that just the idea of cloning him is deadly scary !!

I suggest that we all read this "scary" article and discuss it: I guess it kind of sums up the subject chosen by Stella.

If you guys are interested, please PM or email me so that I can share this aticle with you.

Cheers !
if i read it can i still sleep at night ? ...
ok now really i wana read it
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 1st February 2006

If I understand correctly; Opinion ----> Idea Pool ----> Theme ----> Article. Heil.

In my opinion technology is another tool. We make that tool utilizing available resources to us. How we use this tool, unites or divides.

Nevertheless, people are... people. And technology has its effects surely.

Without going as far as cloning for the time being, the TV in itself, a piece of technology we use, widely, author included. Directing the 'message' thru various programs and news networks has become an art, and the 'message' is for the most of broadcasts either not worth delivering or straight out manipulative. Is the TV uniting or dividing? Seems to me when you brainwash a bunch of people collectively, you kinda unite them in a way.

World economies cannot slow down and wait for other developing economies; take measures to help the developing ones integrate, grow, yes. And technology as far as that's concerned is bringing more 'standardization' and related factors across the globe. It bring down cost and, most importantly, people in various regions develop a 'common hidden culture'. Using similar tools brings people together. How many MACintosh users do you know? ok just kidding, but computers & the internet, this very exercise that 'unites us' here for various causes, is a piece of technology.

I think technology unites a lot more efficiently than divides. The human factor though always has its tricks.
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 2nd February 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by YOSS
I think technology unites a lot more efficiently than divides. The human factor though always has its tricks.
And exactly those tricks and the human discrepancies are the ones which often derail the noble cause of science.
Maybe the humanity isnt mature enough to handle the challenges of our bright technological innovations and scientific relevations. As the technological development speeded up in the last century, the world became more divided to those who have and to those who dont have the accession to these technologies. The gap is still widening, and with exponential speed.
But we can wait with drawing any concusions , I am looking forward to this discussion, I encourage everybody who is interested to join.

Walid, I hope you got the Pm and you will soon post that article!

Regards
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 2nd February 2006

Ok guys,

I am going to post this article about "cloning the man of shroud", but before that, I need to stress on something: please do not take what I am going to post offensive in any way, I respect ALL religions, I am fascinated with anything related to science/religion, eventhough I am against every religion. Everyone has the right to believe in anything he wants.

Now, let me explain what is a shroud, a shroud is a burial cloth. In the case of the shroud in the article, it is an old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man.

Now, hae you ever wondered why Jesus Chrust face looks like this? Why we pictured him this way? To answer you, please take a look at this picture below:



mmm.. not that clear. But if you lok caregully, you can see the picture of a man: his frontal part on the left and the back part on the right. We can clearly see his face, arms crossed and his legs. This is a clearer picture of the face:



You guessed it: this is the man of shroud, the shroud of Turin. This is believed to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ !!

There exists hundreds of theories about it. Some claim that it is fake (in 1988 I guess, Carbon-14 testings dated the shroud to the middle-ages), some claim that this Carbon-14 test was not accurate at all and that the image on the shroud is negative, something impossible to do artistically... you can do your own research and come out with a conclusion.

What concerns me here is that blood remains were also found on the shroud: if this is really Jesus Christ, then this is his blood (some claim it is AB+ if you are interested), and if this is his blood... this is the scary part... blood remains can contain intact DNA samples which in turn can be used (theoreticaly, if sufficient) in cloning !!!

Now that I gave a brief summary on the shroud, I will post the cloning article in the next reply. (what I am trying to do here is to show how scary technology can be and the bound between technology and ethics).
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 2nd February 2006

Walid,

Very interesting article to be discussed! I am looking forward to it.
I guess we came back to my old theme the "Playing God".

Actually I also doubt that the shroud may belong to Jesus, but I havent done a research on that yet. And about the blood type, I heard he was type 0, or?

I also would like to urge everybody not to get into insulting discussion, we are here bc we want to practice some art of dialogue, and this subtle theme would be just perfect for it!

Regards
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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 2nd February 2006

Why it is impossible to clone the Man of the Shroud?
The dismissal of a fear without a cause
by László Boda
Collegamento pro Sindone Internet - June 2002

If we accept that the Man of the Shroud is Jesus Christ, would it have been possible to create a copy of the Crucified by cloning, using the Shroud of Turin? The question seems to be sacrilegious for the believers. Even the well-intentioned non-believers may find the idea to be perverse. An additional circumstance is the bioethical ban of cloning, which may come along with legal prohibition. Despite all of this it was published in the media around the world that the Man of the Shroud can be cloned using the DNA traces found in the Shroud, which has frightened believers.

This fear is however absolutely irrational. Why?

1. According to our knowledge, the process of cloning requires intact DNA parts which can be implanted into the ovule. The DNA is the genetic core in scaffolding of an organism. The cloning of the world famous Scottish sheep Dolly was possible using this method. Moreover, in Dolly’s case the whole cell nucleus was also available. Such intact DNA parts can not be found in the Shroud of Turin, which makes even the possibility of cloning questionable. The situation is however not that simple. Namely, one can ask, whether the decipheration of the genetic code of the DNA in the human blood could give a possibility for cloning.

2. As a matter of principle we can say that the cloning of a human being cannot be applied for the whole personality. The recreation of Jesus Christ as ‘Jesus Christ’ is absolutly impossible. He was the most influential personality of the human history, which cannot be denied by any non-believer ether. This axiom is true for all the great men of the history. Of course this is true for all human beings, but these prominent personalities are in the primary focus of cloning. Moreover these exceptional human beings bore some sort of enhanced individuality. Therefore we can state it even as a rule that the geniuses as genius cannot be cloned. If an intact DNA part e.g. of Michelangelo would be available and using this genetic material we could, let’s say “re-create” 10 Michelangelos (using the biotechnological methods of cloning), this would only mean 10 biological imitations. And substantially this has nothing to do with the original Michelangelo, the genius of the Renaissance.The extraordinary intellectual or charismatical power of a genius is a very complex phenomenon. It is already widely acknowledged – as it was for example u.a. stated by professor of genetics Gabor Vida member of the Hungarian Academy of Science – that the genetic capabilities are only in part responsible for the mental and personal abilities. There are many other conditions to become a genius.

3. But would it be possible to re-create such a “biological imitation” of the “Man of the Shroud”? In his famous book Ian Wilson gives a detailed and convincing proof of the impossibility of such a process based on the results of the latest research (see The Blood and the Shroud. The German edition: Das Turiner Grabtuch. Die Wahrheit. 1999. Goldmann). In order to understand the details of his explanation a short retrospection is needed. The most important is the discovery of an American professors Garza-Valdés of San Antonio / 1994 /. The substantial phenomenon is that it is a plexiglass-like “biolayer” on the surface of the Shroud, which was created by fungi and bacteria and can only become visible by a special microscopical method. What was the echo of this very important scientific result? An English expert was examining the Egyptian mummies using the C14 test method, responded to this discovery of Garza-Valdés. She is Rosalie David / Manchester /. Searching the chronology of one mummy of Egypt she had made already earlier a radiocarbon-test in the British Museum of London. The result was astounding and puzzling. It was inexplicable how the result could be possibly be. It show that the bandage of mummy was approximately one thousand years younger than the body itself. This was one of the strongest counter-argument after the publication of the results of the radiocarbon method in 1988, which implies that the research has to be continued. The debate is still not yet closed, though the science of today is more skeptical concerning the general efficacity of the radiocarbon tests / as 20 year ago /. It is known that due to the discovery of Garza-Valdès Rosalie David got the explanation to her question. She later confirmed this discovery of the “biolayer” by using the radiocarbon test on a mummified Ibis Bird /
in the laboratory of Huston /.

4. But how does this all relates to the question of the credibility of the Shroud of Turin? The “biolayer” is namely perceptible on the Shroud, too. To what extent do these facts prove that the planned cloning of the “Man of the Shroud” would be practically impossible? What are the antecedents? After Alan Adler detected the traces of real blood on the Shroud. Baima Bollone determined the blood group and therefore the earlier hypothesis that the Man of the Shroud is a painting become incongruous. The result of the new scientific investigation made completely indefensible that the “Man of the Shroud” was painted. A French professor Lejeune has detected the traces of the DNA, but he died in 1994. His investigation was continued by an Italian professor Marcello Canale. He announced that he found the DNA, but only a few elements of its long chain have been identified. The piece of textile carrying the blood traces from the crown of thorns went from Giovanni Riggi to Garza-Valdès / San Antonio /.The excellent experts of genetics Dr Tyron and his wife Nancy Tyron accepted the material to perform genetic investigation. They did not know from where the piece of textile came from (it was the fringe of the material cut off the Shroud in order to perform radiocarbon examinations in 1988). They determined that the blood is human and it is the blood of a man. Nancy Tyron has affirmed – and this is decisive - that the cloning is impossible, because only 700 pairs of bases were identified, while the whole molecule contains about 3 billion pairs of bases, and this is an opinion of crucial importance.

5. One can ask, what are the exact genetic elements that the scientists were able to recognize on the Shroud of Turin? Ian Wilson gives the answer to this question in the afore-mentioned book, however it is only understandable for the professionals.

1. Beta globin, a protein which is coded by a segment of the DNA in the 11th chromosome
2. Amelogenin, a protein which is coded by a segment of DNA in the X chromosome
3. Amelogenin, a protein which is coded by a segment of DNA in the Y chromosome.

6. And this is exactly the part of the information about which the fears of the people has to be dismissed. Why? The Y chromosome in the DNA found in the Shroud could imply that a father from the Earth has to be supposed in the conception of Jesus. However the words of Mary, the mother of Jesus can be unequivocally read in the Holy Script “I have no relations with a man” (Luc. 1. 34). Although if the Y chromosome would be taken out of our consideration, we had to face another problem: according to our knowledge the result of parthenogenesis could only be a girl-child. What is then the answer of the theologian? It is the mistery of the conception of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. It can not be explained by biological arguments, and at the best it can be biological only approximated. If Jesus is the Messiah indeed, then this is clearly in accordance with the theological idea. As the biblical citation indicates: “For nothing is impossible with God” (Lukas. 1, 36). According to the Gospel everything has happened through the holy Spirit (Mat. 1, 20; Luc. 1., 35).Therefore neither the mystery of conception, nor the mystery of resurrection of Christ can be explained only by biological arguments. “The meaning of this event is accessible only to faith … from his Incarnation to his Passover” (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 498). That is why the theologian does not have to become confused, and the believer geneticist can also peacefully go about his task. He knows well that there are higher forces above biology (e.g. the appearance of stigmas as a result of psychological experience).

7. The possibility of the cloning – meant in a qualified sense – of the “Man of the Shroud” can be excluded even if we regard the future developments of the methods of genetics. If let’s say in five or ten years there would be a possibility to know the whole DNA molecule from the blood traces in the Shroud, the biological copy of the “Man of the Shroud” could still not be “re-created”. Like this we could only re-create some sort of “biological dummy” which totally lacks the property of biological continuity. To achieve this, the whole DNA molecule should have to be built up using the genetic map of the genome for that is should possible to implant it to an ovule. This would be possible using the DNA of kin species. Maybe. The exclusion of the biological continuity in this case would mean that the real historical personality would act only as a model for an imitation, which does not have any relation with its own biological material. And this is so because the genetic map itself can not be implanted into an ovule!

Let’s took a simple example from architecture, which can be easily understood. An antique temple that has only its walls which has remained together with a drawing, which could be used to rebuild the original walls. By this the continuity is completely assured. This is how the Dome in Cologne was rebuilt to its actual form after centuries. The replacement of the cells in the body is a continuous process, which assures the biological continuity. And this is the only thing which is absent from the result of this hypothetical cloning process. In the case of this process we can not talk about any kind of biological continuity because the result should be only an imitation created using a blueprint, which is not else than a “biological dummy”.

In summary we can say that, the “Man of the Shroud” can not be cloned, neither theoretically nor practically using the available DNA. This would not even be possible if we suppose that the experts of some genetics of sindonology would obtain a more detailed map of the DNA. But the actual possibility of this is practically zero. Even if we would take into account the possibility of cloning of a prominent personality of history it would only result in some sort of a “biological dummy”. Therefore it should be the fears of the possibility of cloning of the “Man of the Shroud” peacefully dismissed.



Dr László Boda, retired theol. professor of the P. Pázmány Catholic University of Budapest, Chair of the Bioethics Research Group of the University, researcher of the Shroud of Turin, invited expert of the Worldcongress of Syndonology of Orvieto 2000. /


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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 2nd February 2006

By the way, Carbon-14 dating is a radiometric dating method that uses the naturally occurring isotope carbon-14 to determine the age of carbonaceous materials up to 60,000 years.

The technique was discovered by Willard Frank Libby and his colleagues in 1949. In 1960, Libby was awarded the Nobel Prize in chemistry for radiocarbon dating.


Some good pages about the Shroud of Turin:

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Default Re: Reading Network - Team: Technology Divides - 2nd February 2006

Walid, thanks for choosing an article written by a Hungarian theologist professor László Boda.

The sole idea of cloning Jesus is really odd and perverse. As Jesus is especially that person who cannot be repeated in history only by cloning. As the article also states it:

Quote:
...the cloning of a human being cannot be applied for the whole personality.
I agree with it, however I find the scientific causes very weak which intend to prove that the cloning is impossible at all.
The article mentions that we can find only traces of DNA on the shroud, therefore from an incomplete DNA chain a human being couldnt have been cloned. The author also mentions that biotechnology may develop in the coming years significantly so that this wouldnt be an obstacle anymore.

While reading this part:

Quote:
The Y chromosome in the DNA found in the Shroud could imply that a father from the Earth has to be supposed in the conception of Jesus. However the words of Mary, the mother of Jesus can be unequivocally read in the Holy Script “I have no relations with a man” (Luc. 1. 34).
Sorry, but the movie Snatch came into my mind , when at the beginning before the rubbery they discuss the case of Mary. They said that the Virgin Birth is a complete misunderstood, the translators mixed it with the word: maiden, as in greek the maiden and virgin are very similar in writing. And it makes sense amazingly.
So I really cant accept here the existence of Y chromosome as the main argument for the shroud not belonging to Jesus. Of course I couldnt find any convincing evidence neither for the proof nor the disproof of the Shrouds credibility.

The idea of Playing God is really dangerous taking into consideration the discrepancies of human maturity to use this tool for medical treatments. And the idea of cloning Jesus itself shatters the credibility of the church, degrades and desecrates the religion in some way.

In addition this article raises not only the questions of the ethics of cloning, but also the connection of science and religion, and the eternal question, which one of them has primary above the other. In my opinion we shall take them as complementaries, if we put them together we may find the answers.
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