Da Vinci Code

[confirm password]

Originally Posted by Spawn Of Cthullu

Interesting how you just assumed that 1) i do follow a certain religion 2) this particular religion is Christianity ( "criticism of your religion" ).

Just because i supported the book's banning doesnt neccesarly mean i belong to a certain sect or anything... however, you assumed that i am a Christian, therefore, you do assume that everyone endorsing the banning of the book is a Christian. Without even being aware of it, you've evaluated my judgement only considering the religion factor. Now let's say if 90% of the Lebanese would think(?) of it that way, that might lead to a catastrophy.

I'm sorry if you were offended, but the truth of the matter is that this book offends the ones who believe in the ideas it is challenging. If you don't, then you belong to a minority. Even if you believe it shouldn't be allowed in Lebanon on the basis that the society isn't ready, you can't deny the fact that the vast majority of people who oppose it do so on religious grounds. That explains what I said in my previous comments.

On the other hand, i never said the contrary of the second part of your reply. Not being exposed to the "other side" is really outrageous, and i support the idea that religious people would access certain information, by music, litterature, and art in general which are contradictory to their religion. Then, and if a person is really religious, this will strenghten his/her faith, rather than disminishing it. Unfortunately, people who take the spiritual side of religion are rare nowadays ... thus, fanatism, though by different degrees, is a common case.

If you already read my previous reply well, you could have concluded that i am with the freedom of opinion basically, but in our specific case in Lebanon, the society is too fragile to handle books like The Satanic Verses or The Da Vinci Code. On the bright side, people are getting more exposed to ideas of secularism, and step by step, they're getting out of the sectarianism they're drowned into ! But, exposing them to books in the vein of DVC at the moment would do them more harm than good .

The thing is, the vast majority of people who want it banned probably haven't even read the book. Take the Satanic Verses, I have a hard time believing that everyone who wants Rushdie dead has actually READ it. A society that is not ready is no excuse; if people don't want to read it then they are free to choose not to buy it. No one is infringing on their right NOT to read the book if they do not want to; however, they do infringe on the rights of those who choose to read it. People's rights end when they violate the rights of others, which is the case here.

You say that people will be better able to handle such books once they embrace secularism more, but I believe it's the other way round. Things will never change if people are not exposed to different ideas.

Again, I apologize for jumping to conclusions regarding your religious beliefs, if any, but your personal reasons for keeping the book banned are in no way typical.

edit: Just a sidenote, AI/AS's "children" comment was not ad hominem because he did not attack your character; rather, he refers to the fact that it is insulting to people's intelligence when you assume they can't handle certain ideas.

[Spawn Of Cthullu]

Originally Posted by confirm password

I'm sorry if you were offended, but the truth of the matter is that this book offends the ones who believe in the ideas it is challenging. If you don't, then you belong to a minority. Even if you don't believe it should be allowed in Lebanon on the basis that the society isn't ready, you can't deny the fact that the vast majority of people who oppose it do so on religious grounds. That explains what I said in my previous comments.

... which brings us again to the same question. Why are people opposing the book doing it only based on religious ground ? As i said before, they lies in giving them more time, to mature intellectually. Let us not forget that the country is dominated by religious sects, thus allowing DVC to access Lebanon would result many religious as well as political problems ( since they are dramatically entwined in Lebanon ) , which is something we don't quite need in this crucial period.

Originally Posted by confirm password

The thing is, the vast majority of people who want it banned probably haven't even read the book. Take the Satanic Verses, I have a hard time believing that everyone who wants Rushdie dead has actually READ it. A society that is not ready is no excuse; if people don't want to read it then they are free to choose not to buy it. No one is infringing on their right NOT to read the book if they did not want to; however, they do infringe on the rights of those who choose to read it. People's rights end when they violate the rights of others, which is the case here.

I agree that the ban is creating a reverse psychology amongst people, yet i do find a non-ready society a valid reason to ban. You're stating the consequences, omiting the causes. The fact that a society isn't ready for controversial religious subjects is mainly due to sectarianism and fanatism. In a regime where politics and religion interfere , there has two be two consequences : 1) Religious unjustified dominance ( the ban , as an example ) 2) An unready society ( the point you're omiting ) . Thus, in my opinion, secularisation should come before the ban or permit of such books as DVC .

Originally Posted by confirm password

You say that people will be better able to handle such books once they embrace secularism more, but I believe it's the other way round. Things will never change if people are not exposed to different ideas.

Not really, both are consequences of one cause : Country dominated by religion

Originally Posted by confirm password

edit: Just a sidenote, AI/AS's "children" comment was not ad hominem because he did not attack your character; rather, he refers to the fact that it is insulting to people's intelligence when you assume they can't handle certain ideas.

I believe AI/AS can speak for himself .

[Anti-Israel/Anti-Syria]

Originally Posted by Spawn Of Cthullu

How so insighful :) . I guess this was a civilized discussion . However, your reply was Ad-Hominem at it's paroxism, and devoid of all forms of objectivity.

Do you know what an Ad Hominem means? Search engines are great tools. And I don't know what your definition of civilised is, but it most certainly is not "agreeing with everything Spaw Of Cthullu says".

I never treated you like a child, but i'm afraid you're giving me reasons for doing so.

You are quite predictable. It's ironic how when people on this forum don't like what I say, they use this phrase.

Anyway, treat me like a child or treat me like an adult, it won't stop me from challenging your hypocrisy. You want a free Lebanon, but you want a free Lebanon based on your own understanding of freedom, not based on the definition of freedom.

[Anti-Israel/Anti-Syria]

Not really, both are consequences of one cause : Country dominated by religion

So why don't you ban religion then?

Also, I don't see why the parliament needs to debate the Da Vinci Code.............

[PhoenixResurrection]

The da vinci code is a NOVEL based on SOME historic facts. D brown has never said it is the utmost truth..
What is great in this book is that it makes you question all the “dogma” we have been taught throughout the years.. It makes you THINK and analyze and REACH your OWN conclusions: “no way this is crap” or “why not?”
Banning such a book in Lebanon is shameful but I am not surprised: is such a sectarian society, the so-called imminent religious personnel have full power to act foolishly and ban a novel. A novel that didn’t attack the divinity of Jesus Christ nor did it uphold heretical comments.

[Anti-Israel/Anti-Syria]

No books should be banned in Lebanon. Not the Da Vinci Code, not Robert Fisk's book (which I heard is banned in Lebanon), not anyone else's. Banning books is not reminiscent of a democratic, free society, it is a sign of something wrong, of a sick society that does not dare to let its children think for themselves for fear that they would criticise it, question its actions, or challenge its institutions. I thought by now we would've learned the lesson by heart. Apparently many among us have not.

[PhoenixResurrection]

hmmm misunderstood...naturally no books should be banned....i believe in this endangered concept called freedom of opinion..
ironically even the most "democratic" countries challenge every year a number of books in an attempt to remove them from schools' libraries (harry potter was challenged in 16 states in USA for its focus on wizardry and magic ) simply ridiculous
ou va le monde :sigh:

[Spawn Of Cthullu]

Originally Posted by Anti-Israel/Anti-Syria

Do you know what an Ad Hominem means? Search engines are great tools. And I don't know what your definition of civilised is, but it most certainly is not "agreeing with everything Spaw Of Cthullu says".

I don't see how all these incoherent blabberings are relevant the discussion.

Originally Posted by Anti-Israel/Anti-Syria

You are quite predictable. It's ironic how when people on this forum don't like what I say, they use this phrase.

I don't know what the hell are you talking about, anyway, if someone had pointed out before your childish manner of arguing, this should ring some bells .

Anyway, i'll make it clear that your little conspiracy theory is quite exagerated ... " when people don't like what i say " ... get over it dude, these "they all hate what i say" theories will lead you nowhere. We're all here to discuss, and not to impose an opinion, and i personally welcome the most people who have a different opinion than mine, wanting to elaborate theirs interestingly, but what you were doing was far from that ... and the proof, during that last reply of yours, you never happened to get near the discussed topic, but rather focused on bashing me, calling me an hypocrit and whatever you blabbered , without even backing up your assumption with valid arguments ( again, you're being Ad Hominem, my child ) .

[LebanesePride]

Guys please any personal remarks you have to one another, address them via private messages. Keep the discussion focused on the subject.

[Anti-Israel/Anti-Syria]

again, you're being Ad Hominem, my child

People can't BE Ad Hominems. This proves that you don't know what Ad Hominem means but are only using it to impress people, which you miserably failed in.

Now, "my child", back on-topic, the reason I called you a hypocrite was not to bash you but to show that you're a hypocrite for supporting the Syrian withdrawal on the basis of "freedom" (among others), and at the same time violating the very bases of freedom by supporting banning a book that supposedly might offend (and somehow result in society being ruled by religion? ) people.......... I didn't see you giving proofs that not banning the Da Vinci Code will result in a society ruled by religion......... And until you do so, you are in no position to tell me that I have not provided any proofs, because that too makes you a hypocrite.

Now give me a REAL reason for wanting to ban Da Vinci Code. I already stated why it should not be banned, and why the ban should not be supported ESPECIALLY by the FPM, otherwise it would make the FPM and everyone that supports it and also supports the ban hypocrites. And that, btw, is not a personal comment. It is a very general one. And saying that someone is a hypocrite is not necessarily an Ad Hominem, check out the definition of Ad Hominem thank you.