Atheists, how do you view them?

[chafic]

More enlightened....

[Omeros]

ماذا لو قلت لك لا يهمني؟ ولا تهمني فكرة ان انظر الى الذي لا يؤمن بالله وحتى الذي يؤمن؟
لم ساهتم ان احكم على المؤمن قبل اللا مؤمن ؟
عدم الايمان بشئ او بفكرة هو خلاصة تجربة خلاصة افكار محددة ، فانا ما افهمه بايماني لا يمكن لاي كان ان يفهمه حتى ربما لو تشاركنا في الافكار ولكن خبرتي هي خبرتي وخبرته هي خبرته ولا يجوز ان انظر لفكر الاخرين من منطلقي انا ، وان فعلت يا سيدي ساقع في حكم انا اساسه وليس استنادا للواقع فعليا !
بالتالي لا يجب ان نبحث في قضايا كتلك ونترك كل مؤمن بافكاره على راحته وتقبله كما هو دون البحث في التفاصيل المملة كي لا تصبح العلاقة والتواصل مملا !

هل اؤمن بالله ؟
"انو شو دخلك"؟ وما الهدف من السؤال ؟ ان امنت او لم اؤمن اسيتغير شئ ؟ ان ما يهم في كلتا الحالتين هو "انا" وسعادتي" وشعوري بالراحة" من هذا المنطلق انا معنية فقط بافكاري ...

واذا حاولت ان اثبت ان الله غير موجود الا يعني انني اعترف اصلا بوجوده واثبت نفي لواقع وجوده؟ وان حاولت ان اثبت انه موجود الا يعني انني انطلق من فكرة انه غير موجود واحاول اثبات النقيض؟ بالتالي اجمل قرار : هو عدم اثبات شئ !

المشكل في لبنان ، ليس الله وعدم وجوده ، وليس من يقبل بان هناك غير مؤمن او مؤمن مسلم او مؤمن مسيحي المشكل في لبنان اننا لا نعرف التواصل ونعتقد ان التواصل هو تفصيل كل الامور لاخراج حقيقة عامة وهذه من بدع الشرق الاوسط : فمن قال ان هناك حقيقة واحدة؟

بالتالي هذا الموضوع عليه ان يقفل ، وهذا الموضوع لا جدوى منه ولا يمكن الا ان ياتي بمشاكل ولا يفعل الا تعقيد افكارنا واخيرا هذا موضوع من المواضيع المحرمة لان كل ما يتعلق بالدين ممنوع !

لهذه الاسباب : ارى انه يجب ان يقفل مثله مثل الموضوع السابق

شكرا

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by chafic

More enlightened....

The total opposite....

[Jorje]

Depends on the person. I consider atheism a more reasonable belief system than most religions, but there are people who are atheist for all the wrong reasons.

The usual implication is that atheists don't have morals. This is the major prejudice against atheists. It's completely false and ridiculous imo.

[coralie]

Originally Posted by der FPBer

First, just to make things clear, this thread is not to discuss religion, nor any religious related issue, nor even any other related philosophical beliefs.


How do you view and judge atheists?

Do you accept their coexistence in the same community you belong to in the first?
If yes, how do you handle them?
If no, what do you suggest as a fair solution for such coexistence to take place?

Conversely, same questions would be also posed on atheists?

how do i judge atheiste ? i dont judge them why should i ?

i dont see why i shouldn't be able to coexiste with them in the same community , are they some sort of freaky aliens or a disease ?

for me they are normal human being as simple as that ,with all that goes with human caracteristics !. i might have troubles coexisting with some of those who call themselves fanatic "believers" (if you see what i mean ) atheisme is not a disease it is a way of thinking a free way of living and i respect that !

[False Morel]

Originally Posted by Omeros

ماذا لو قلت لك لا يهمني؟ ولا تهمني فكرة ان انظر الى الذي لا يؤمن بالله وحتى الذي يؤمن؟
لم ساهتم ان احكم على المؤمن قبل اللا مؤمن ؟
عدم الايمان بشئ او بفكرة هو خلاصة تجربة خلاصة افكار محددة ، فانا ما افهمه بايماني لا يمكن لاي كان ان يفهمه حتى ربما لو تشاركنا في الافكار ولكن خبرتي هي خبرتي وخبرته هي خبرته ولا يجوز ان انظر لفكر الاخرين من منطلقي انا ، وان فعلت يا سيدي ساقع في حكم انا اساسه وليس استنادا للواقع فعليا !
بالتالي لا يجب ان نبحث في قضايا كتلك ونترك كل مؤمن بافكاره على راحته وتقبله كما هو دون البحث في التفاصيل المملة كي لا تصبح العلاقة والتواصل مملا !

هل اؤمن بالله ؟
"انو شو دخلك"؟ وما الهدف من السؤال ؟ ان امنت او لم اؤمن اسيتغير شئ ؟ ان ما يهم في كلتا الحالتين هو "انا" وسعادتي" وشعوري بالراحة" من هذا المنطلق انا معنية فقط بافكاري ...

واذا حاولت ان اثبت ان الله غير موجود الا يعني انني اعترف اصلا بوجوده واثبت نفي لواقع وجوده؟ وان حاولت ان اثبت انه موجود الا يعني انني انطلق من فكرة انه غير موجود واحاول اثبات النقيض؟ بالتالي اجمل قرار : هو عدم اثبات شئ !

المشكل في لبنان ، ليس الله وعدم وجوده ، وليس من يقبل بان هناك غير مؤمن او مؤمن مسلم او مؤمن مسيحي المشكل في لبنان اننا لا نعرف التواصل ونعتقد ان التواصل هو تفصيل كل الامور لاخراج حقيقة عامة وهذه من بدع الشرق الاوسط : فمن قال ان هناك حقيقة واحدة؟

deep and sincere thanks to those golden words Om
i hope that every human would comprehend those words and bind by.

بالتالي هذا الموضوع عليه ان يقفل ، وهذا الموضوع لا جدوى منه ولا يمكن الا ان ياتي بمشاكل ولا يفعل الا تعقيد افكارنا واخيرا هذا موضوع من المواضيع المحرمة لان كل ما يتعلق بالدين ممنوع !

لهذه الاسباب : ارى انه يجب ان يقفل مثله مثل الموضوع السابق

شكرا

Om, why arent you gettin what i'm willin to discuss in this thread?!

i'm not discussing atheism, nor why should anybody adopt this idea nor reject as a personal belief! everyone is free to believe in what he wants!
i'm even against such discussion whenever and wherever they take place, because they're pointless and misleading. an agnostic, or a seeker, can personally do his own efforts to reach a conlusion. there are many interesting historic books, philosophic books, holy books, etc.. that all serve in this matter.. no need for external help.. only some inquiries from specific specialized people/thinkers would serve some help, but no discussions i think.. i figured that out from my personal experience as well.

the answer i'm awaiting here is the wonderful words you have put together above.
but do you think that the majority of the lebanese think the same way as you do? or even similarly?

i already mentioned how do the lebanese handle this issue.
till now only the ones who think the same way answered me. but i doubt that even the majority of members on the orange room think the same way!
maybe those didnt bother even to express themselves!

the conclusion i'm trying to reach here and generalize in order for everyone to adopt is the exact golden words you just wrote!

to go further in the discussion, since it seems we agree on the basic point, i'd like to ask you:
why do you think those people think in a completely different way? and what solution could be served to solve this social crisis? i.e. to let them adopt the right way of thinking and interacting with the different categorized people? this solution could even work in other social problems as well? since the main problem here are the refusal/rejection of others' beliefs and affiliations, intolerance, and violence. and these are not only the main factors in this very problem, but also in other major problems we're witnessing in lebanon. but i prefer in this thread to focus on the topic i mentioned.

[abientot]

Originally Posted by der FPBer

i asked for your opinion and take on this subject, and it's good to know that you think that way.

but lets leave the rhetorics out!
i think by posting this thread on the orange room, it was clear which commiunities/societies i was addressing.

If i would ask this question here in europe, to a german for instance, irrespective whether he's a hard core religious person or an atheist, he'd go like: "so what? what kind of question is that?! what are you hinting to exactly?!"

actually, even in europe, this question should inversely be posed on atheists and non-religious people, since they constitute the majority nowadays in europe. religion is vanishing, it's turning into a symbolic thing by time, just history!

but in our societies, the arab sicieties including lebanon, and also other religious societies (iran, turkey, indonesia, the latins, etc...) it's not the same!
even is US, where religious traditions and even beliefs are not any more bound to or even respected, atheism still serves as a rejected idea!

also history doesnt lie, we all know how atheists and even other religious communites were treated by those religious who had the powers throughout history consecutively..
i'd like to use a carlin's quote right:
"Do you believe in God? No. Boom! Dead. Do you believe in God? Yes. Do you believe in MY God? No. Boom! Dead. My God has a bigger **** than your God!"

So, there is no need to cover some things up here! In lebanon, in all the communities still if the majority identifies someone as atheist, this person would be socially rejected! i'm not suggesting here that these religious communities abandon or amend some of their traditions or beliefs to cope with this new idea! on the contrary, anyone, irrespective of his own beliefs and favored traditions, should abide by the "rules" of the community he's livin in, and should respect their traditions and habits. he's free of course not to participate, or just to leave out, but not to force on a change!
and when someone manages to cope in a specific community, there's no need for discrimination anymore! but again, that's not happening, in most cases.

Well these were not rhetorics, it's not like atheists are running around telling people that they are atheists, and it is not like im asking people if they believe in god right after i ask them what their name is.

I dont think discrimination against atheists is still that strong in Lebanon especially among the youth, however ure right, it is still an issue for some people, but i guess these people dont have issues with atheism only but with anything that is different than their own religion.

[Omeros]

why do you think those people think in a completely different way? and what solution could be served to solve this social crisis? i.e. to let them adopt the right way of thinking and interacting with the different categorized people? this solution could even work in other social problems as well? since the main problem here are the refusal/rejection of others' beliefs and affiliations, intolerance, and violence. and these are not only the main factors in this very problem, but also in other major problems we're witnessing in lebanon. but i prefer in this thread to focus on the topic i mentioned.

انا ارى ايضا ان المشكل الاساسي هو عينه "التسرّع" ومقياس الحكم الخاطئ .

التسرّع:

ان اللبنانيين متسرعين ، في الحكم في اتخاذ القرارات في حياتهم في كل ما يخص نظرتهم للدنيا ولله وللوجود لا ياخذون وقتهم في الحكم بل يصدرون احكاما تعسفية تلقائية دون التفكير بما هم في صدد اطلاقه ولا يعيدون النظر بما اطلقوه بسبب عقدة الغرور ومن هنا تر ان كا حياتهم وهم متقع ..... والتواصل مع الاخر حاجزه حكم مسبق والتسرع .
وهذا التسرع في الحكم ليس لدى كل اللبنانيين ، لكن اغلبهم كذلك سيدي الاغلب بعد مرحلة النضوج . ساوضح :


لديك نوعان من البشر في لبنان ، الاول هم المراهقين وما بين العشرون والثلاثون من العمر
الثاني هم الجيل الذي يدير البلد وهو فوق ال 30 .....

الاول متسرعين ولكن متهورين اي ان احكامهم ليست متسرعة وذو احكام مسبقة يريدون ان يغيروا هذه المفاهيم .... الا ان في هذا القسم من لا يتحمل الضغط المفرض من البالغين فينجر في التيار الذين تعودوا على الحكم المسبق وباتوا مخضرمين به .....
بالتالي يبقى قسم صغير يناضل وهو هو ، الا ان ردة الفعل لديه تصبح "عنيفة" غير مفاوضة غير مساومة والقليل القليل الذي يحافظ على رباطة جاشه ...
من هنا لا استبعد القول اننا مجتمع "وسخ النوايا" " مقيت النفس" لا نر الا اخبار واشاعات عن البعض ولا نعط وقتا للتواصل مع الاخر ..... لاننا سمعنا خبرية او لاننا راينا مبدا "ما فهمنا"


مقياس الحكم الخاطئ:

نحن ايضا مجتمع يختار معايير لنحكم من منطلقها ونحددها ولا ندر ان اول خطا نفعله هو اننا نحدد هذا المقياس فنحن نحكم على الفرد وفق: مبادئه وافكاره ، تصرفاته العاطفية ( الفتاة مع الرجل \ الرجل مع الفتاة) اختلافه عنا ..... اي انننا ناخذ انفسنا كمعيار ونقول "انا مش هيك" هوي غلط ..... او اننا "ننظّر" من بعيد لبعيد واحيانا نتصرف ابشع من تصرفاته .....
انو مثلا فرضا : انا شو قلي علاقة بايمانه؟ انا شو قلي علاقة مع مين نام مبارح؟ ومن ايا حق بحكم علي من بعيد لبعيد ، ويلي يعز علي وبيتصرف اضرب من هيك ابرر له تصرفاته !
الحل في الحالتين وللسببين :
التواصل ...... دون حواجز ....... وان كان هناك حاجز واحد في نفسنا كن اكيدا : فشل التواصل !

[Nayla]

Originally Posted by der FPBer

First, just to make things clear, this thread is not to discuss religion, nor any religious related issue, nor even any other related philosophical beliefs.


How do you view and judge atheists?

I see them as human beings, just like me and i don't judge them because i'm not God to judge anyone
Every person has to make a choice in his life, their choice is to be atheist: they are free

Originally Posted by der FPBer

Do you accept their coexistence in the same community you belong to in the first?
If yes, how do you handle them?
If no, what do you suggest as a fair solution for such coexistence to take place?

Why shouldn't accept their coexistence in the same community i belong? Who am i to throw them out?
When the Prophet came to the Arabia, God asked him to not be rude with the polytheists and the atheists; Why?
He said in the holy Coran:

" ولو كنت فظّا غليظ القلب لانفضّوا من حولك"

So, at first, we have to accept anyone as a human, treat him as a human, eventhough he thinks or believes differently
Everyone has the right to be as he wants and nobody has the right to judge him or to be rude with him because he doesn't have our beliefs

For me, only God judges and only Him has authority on people's life
Atheists are humans and they deserve to be treated as humans

If i don't agree with them doesn't mean that they're not humans

[Omeros]

Originally Posted by abientot

Well these were not rhetorics, it's not like atheists are running around telling people that they are atheists, and it is not like im asking people if they believe in god right after i ask them what their name is.

I dont think discrimination against atheists is still that strong in Lebanon especially among the youth, however ure right, it is still an issue for some people, but i guess these people dont have issues with atheism only but with anything that is different than their own religion.

يجب ان تتوقع كل شئ ، كل الاحتمالات مفتوحة ولكن اهم احتمال هو التفكير ان كل انسان يتغير لاختبار او لاخر .... البشر غير محدودين هو في تطور خصوصا الجيل الصاعد ولا ننس انه في مرحلة ما كنا جيلا صاعدا ... علينا ان نتقبل اكل نحويهم نحبهم كما قالت نايلة ونحاول ان نكون اساتذة بجانبهم ...

mich hek nayla (K)