The Zionist Plan for the Middle East

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

We're not discussing Syria here, we can do that in a new thread

And we're not discussing israeli land encroachment here unless you want to use THAT as a proof of Great Israel

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Exactly Dry Ice. I'm so glad to hear that. Yallah let's cut this **** and stick to the topic, it's much bigger than a party or a single country.

Yes, I invite to participate as well in this unity thread here

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by chafic

I think that this is more like an essay, rather than a "Zionist Plan for the Middle East". When and how was that plan adopted?
The article talks about dissolving the whole region into sectarian states, changing regimes, doing this and that. Now we are in the year 2007, 25 years later, and none of that happened. We have to note well that the authors says that the proposed plan has to be carried during the eighties, for some reasons that he mentions briefly.
Ultimately, Lebanon is not divided according to his proposed scenario (something which he holds as a certainty), Syria still has the same regime, so does Egypt, Jordan, most of the countries of the Arab Peninsula, the Sinai is not occupied.....

Now few random comments about the article:
1- The author starts by claiming that "The Arab Moslem world, therefore, is not the major strategic problem which we shall face in the Eighties, despite the fact that it carries the main threat against Israel, due to its growing military might". The rest of the article is all dedicated to plans of how and why to dissolve Arab states into smaller sectarian ones. Why do that if these countries do not pose a strategical threat?
2- The author criticizes the peace treaty signed with Egypt, saying it is treachery. At the same time, the author proposes the toppling of the Jordanian regime .
By 1994, Israel signs a peace treaty with Jordan, after which Jordan got back around 400sq km and bigger water quota from the Jordan River.
3- The author says that "an Iraqi-Irani war will tear the...", which make it seem as if this war is to be expected. However, the Iraqi-Iranian war was already taking place by june 1982, since it actually started in 1980.

........

There are many points that I lost the track of.

Now seriously, how much does that seem like a "Zionist Plan for the Middle East"?
One speculation that ended up to be close from reality is the division of Iraq. However, it came totally out of context. When the Iraq was invaded by the US, it was rather like a devastated state, not the powerful military state he describes. And furthermore, the division of Iraq into smaller states is not evident even at this very moment, nor will it be beneficial for Israel, on the long or short term. Ultimately, there would be a major state backed up by Iran, a country quite opposed to Israel, especially after the islamic revolution of 1979.

For a first reading, this story doesn't make lot of sense to me, or at least, it could be labeled as Zionist plan for the ME

First of all...

ما كل ما يتمنى المرء يدركه...تجري الرياح بما لا تشتهي السفن

Yet... this doesn't mean they have given up, or they've stopped trying.

There was a logical reply to your post in the thread so I won't go there. But I’d like to say that this essay is very logical.

Iraq was a developing country inspite of its dictatorship regime. Since the American invasion of Iraq, the major targets have been the educated elite. And whenever a country stands or "tries to stand" on its feet in the region they target it.

There's not gonna be any Islamic state in Lebanon; if they target us, you're in it too, so get yourself prepared.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by jiugiusti

Ahmad,
I know where you come from; I read Saadé a lot.
But, spanish, german, irish, africans, etc.. decided at a certain time in history to 'be' american and built an empire.

We should first, all of us residents of lebanon, decide to be just 'lebanese' and build an empire... Unless we do that, we will stay in constant internal conflicts.

Jiugiusti

Do you think that there is one single Lebanese person out there who doesn't dream of living in a strong beautiful empire???

The question is... Will they "let" us build it??? This is what we're worried about.

A strong "Arabic" country on Israeli border is not what Israel and America would like to see. We shouldn't forget Rice's plan for a new Middle East which started with the killing of thousands of innoscent people. An empire is no toy to no one. So will they let us build our "empire" without having their grip on it?

WE want a free independant country, not one controlled by anyone whether it be America or Israel or Syria or anyone else.

[Dalzi]

Some of the interesting things mentioned in the article include:

The war over resources in the world, the Arab monopoly on oil, and the need of the West to import most of its raw materials from the Third World, are transforming the world we know.

Today, we suddenly face immense opportunities for transforming the situation thoroughly and this we must do in the coming decade; otherwise we shall not survive as a state.

Israel will not unilaterally break the treaty, neither today, nor in 1982, unless it is very hard pressed economically and politically and Egypt provides Israel with the excuse to take the Sinai back into our hands for the fourth time in our short history.

It should be clear, under any future political situation or military constellation, that the solution of the problem of the indigenous Arabs will come only when they recognize the existence of Israel in secure borders up to the Jordan River and beyond it, as our existential need in this difficult epoch, the nuclear epoch which we shall soon enter.

Judea, Samaria and the Galilee are our sole guarantee for national existence, and if we do not become the majority in the mountain areas, we shall not rule in the country and we shall be like the Crusaders, who lost this country which was not theirs anyhow, and in which they were foreigners to begin with.

[Ahmad Aown]

Originally Posted by Lebanese_Nationalist

Is it feasible and realistic? How can the Israelis occupy such a vast area of land, taking into account their relatively low numbers? Would the US and the rest of the international community allow such a plan to occur?

I think the dream of a greater Israel is dead because peace treaties have been signed with Egypt and Jordan, with a de-facto peace treaty in effect with Syria. Nice article Dalzi, but this fear mongering doesn't work on me.

Lebanese_Nationalist

Ref your question above, I am wondering whether it is coming out of Worry and Fear,
Or
Out of Concern to how we should confront this Evil Mind of theirs.

Not to mention that Skepticisim in this Manner is out of the question due to the Natural trend of Powerfull States Looking at weaker ones with eyes of Greed,
And taking into consideration the fact that Israel did not Exist prior to 1948, and even when it came to existance the percentage of the Jewish Population to the Palestinians (Syrians), was only 8%, and the Area of the Introduced Israeli State was far smaller than what it is Now or 1967 or 1970 or or or .

As Dalzi said, we don't need an Article to prove their Plan, We Read their History that is full of Conspiracies, we Read their Talmud Teachings that reveals their Evil Mind, and Most Important we have experienced their Methods in times of War and (Peace).

So what is it, Fear or Concern?

[Ahmad Aown]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

It "worked" in South Lebanon?

As far as I know the Israelis were constantly harassed and resisted in South Lebanon until their retreat in 2000 and it "worked"? hmmmmm

We are discussing a Plan here regardless of whether it is successful or not, so if it didn't work, then Good for us, But that does not mean that the Plan Does not exist.

Unless you have in mind major mass movements of populations and nuking whole areas, in this case we can write a book that would compete with Orson Welles himself.

Writing Books of our Defeat is not something to promote especially that we are not Defeated.
The War is ongoing still, we have Lost Battles, But we Have won some as well,
I say whether they intend to displace mass numbers of population based on Secterian beleifs or others, (It is happening in Iraq today, and it happened in Lebanon before as well), or Whether they intend to use their Nukes, We are the ones concerned about this Cancer that was implanted in our Area, we are the ones that are targeted with their Plans, Our Existance is at Stake, and it is we who have to find a solution for such Disease.

There are Nations that Read History, and there are Nations that Make History. We Have made History before, and we are capable of making history today.

I repeat for the Fourth time, what are we to do to Make History?

How are we to Utilize information and Facts placed before us in a manner of serving our National Interest?

Let us think Positive and Focus on Solutions Rather on Discussing Problems.

Give us your opinion on Solutions.

[jiugiusti]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Jiugiusti

Do you think that there is one single Lebanese person out there who doesn't dream of living in a strong beautiful empire???

The question is... Will they "let" us build it??? This is what we're worried about.

A strong "Arabic" country on Israeli border is not what Israel and America would like to see. We shouldn't forget Rice's plan for a new Middle East which started with the killing of thousands of innoscent people. An empire is no toy to no one. So will they let us build our "empire" without having their grip on it?

WE want a free independant country, not one controlled by anyone whether it be America or Israel or Syria or anyone else.

(1) On this thread and in many others, we show our differences: I believe a lebanese independant nation, not an arabic one, not whatever one.

(2) There are many lebanese who think of an strong islamic nation, a strong arab nation, etc.. they don't care about a strong lebanese nation.

(3) True, Israel don't want a strong lebanon.. but the worse is that we 'residents of lebanon' did not yet agree on 'lebanese nation'.. Believe me, when we lebanese agree and beleive in one lebanese nation, we can build an empire. but as long as there are lebanese who thank syria and iran (after their occupation to lebanon), when some still goes to KSA, Egypt, USA, France, etc........... we won't ever build a city.. not a nation.

(4) The main problem begins in lebanon than comes regional and international interferences... Our identitarian differences... Most christians (it happens to be christians) would accept a federal or even one secular lebanon.. Most muslim (it happens to be muslims) will reject it.. and will keep fighting for syria, iran, ksa, egypt, jordan, arab nationa, islamic nation, etc... And identitarian differences has no solutions, even in our dreams.

p.s. when I say secular, I mean non religious (christian or muslim alike), even if 90% want a christian or muslim nation.

[chafic]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

First of all...

ما كل ما يتمنى المرء يدركه...تجري الرياح بما لا تشتهي السفن

Yet... this doesn't mean they have given up, or they've stopped trying.

There was a logical reply to your post in the thread so I won't go there. But I’d like to say that this essay is very logical.

Iraq was a developing country inspite of its dictatorship regime. Since the American invasion of Iraq, the major targets have been the educated elite. And whenever a country stands or "tries to stand" on its feet in the region they target it. ,

There's not gonna be any Islamic state in Lebanon; if they target us, you're in it too, so get yourself prepared.

I think I answered the points of this points in the previous post in this thread.

What we're clearly talking about here is the existence or not of the alleged plan, and whether or not it's adopted by Israel. I gave reasons for which I think this essay, that looks like general directions for a foreign policy, does not seem like an official plan, and how a current retrospective look at events makes it even less likely that this could be a plan.

Now I don't want to discuss the Iraqi or Iranian regimes, and the US war on Iraq. Despite a parallelism between the ideas of the Israeli theorist, and those of a Neo-conservative administration in the US, it would be quite absurd to assume that the war on Iraq came as an implementation of Israeli plan.

As for the last post, regarding the Islamic state in Lebanon, I think you confused my post with someone else's post; I mean that comment came out of nowhere, unless you have a better explanation.

Now you say that if they target you, I will be in it too. I guess you first have to define who is the "Me" and who are the "You" and of course, who are the "They".

[Kibitzer]

Originally Posted by Lebanese_Nationalist

LebArmenian,

This anti-semitism of yours is getting quite worrisome; however, I do agree that the "Jews" are a bit foxier than the Arabs. They know that they can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, with "flies" being the sympathy of the international community. Instead of having Arabs chanting death to anything that moves, maybe they should become a little bit more foxy, don't you think?

Interesting thread - is it common in Lebanon for people to take this stuff seriously? This particular article was written in 1982 by a widely known anti-semitic Chemistry teacher using sources and data from the 1970's. The people cited in the article (including the author) are all dead or dying as in the case of Sharon who by the way went against many in Israel and evacuated Gaza and returned it to the Palestinians. So - this is all "stuff" from over 25 years ago and it's acts like there is still a cold war with the Soviets. Even if you choose to believe this kind of thing - what is the advantage in living in the past? Think of the changes to our world in just the last 25 years, the advances? The Mid-East has lost out on many of those advances and I sometimes wonder if it is because the past is more appealing than the future.

Articles like this, web-sites and organizations that preach Holocaust Denial and Jew Hatred are Israel's very Best Friend. This type of thing is exactly what keeps sympathy with Israel. They must cheer every time they read this stuff. Israel today has no great "friend" that Iran and Hezbollah.

Nasrallah and Jews

Within a month of Nasrallah's taking over as leader, Hezbollah (with the help of Iranian intelligence) bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200. The next attack perpetrated by Hezbollah—again with Iranian help—was the bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires, killing 86 and injuring over 200.

The widening arena of Hezbollah's attacks stemmed from Nasrallah's perception that Jews anywhere are legitimate targets. In fact, Nasarallah has said:

If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

Shiite scholar Amal Saad-Ghorayeb analyzed the anti-Jewish roots of Hezbollah ideology in her book Hezbollah: Politics & Religion. In it, she quotes Hassan Nasrallah describing his antipathy toward Jews:

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002)

Nasrallah also incoroporates anti-Semitic rhetoric in speeches. For example, he has characterized Jews as the "grandsons of apes and pigs" and "Allah's most cowardly and greedy creatures." (MEMRI: Al- Manar, Feb. 3, 2006)

Nasrallah purveys his message via Hezbollah's own television network, Al-Manar, a primary engine of incitement to violence against Jews, Israelis and Americans. Al Manar's stated mission is to "wage psychological warfare against the Zionist enemy." This is often done by glorifying attacks, particularly suicide missions against Israel. Last year, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar encouraging "martyrdom" among children, saying:

How can death become joyous? How can death become happiness? When Al-Hussein asked his nephew Al-Qassem, when he had not yet reached puberty: "How do you like the taste of death, son?" He answered that it was sweeter than honey. How can the foul taste of death become sweeter than honey? Only through conviction, ideology, and faith, through belief, and devotion.

We do not want to...leave our homeland to Israel... Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV , Feb. 18-19, 2005)

In May, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar TV to explain that "our nation's willingness to sacrifice their blood, souls, children, fathers, and families" is an advantage over the Jews "who guard their lives." (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV on May 23, 2006.)

I guess it's well known that Hezbollah wants to eradicate Jews and Israel and he makes no secret of this at all. It this "attitude" popular with the rest of Lebanon? I know that HA represents most Shiite, do they follow this doctrine that is in the above quotes?

I usually avoid any threads about Israel in this forum as they are way too angry, give me indigestion and besides that, I have no interest in defending actions of Israel when I believe they are wrong and there never seems to be anything "constructive" which I think is foolish. This thread concerns "ideas" and I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you

[Incognito]

Kibitzer,

Anti-Jewish sentiment in the Arab world is probably a result of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim/anti-Christian behaviour by the Jewish state even before its inception. Every action causes a reaction.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.


"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more."
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force..."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
--Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

During a sermon preceding the 2001 Passover holiday, the influential Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef exclaimed: "May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them." He added: "It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones." Source: Ha'aretz April 12, 2001

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."-Rafael Eitan, chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, quoted in Yediot Ahronot, April 13, 1983, and The New York Times, April 14, 1983.

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."-Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, "Complete Diaries," June 12, 1895 entry.

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated, "The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable."


"The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon." --Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, in his testimony to the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry, 1947


"Before (the Palestinians) very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they and their ancestors have lived We are the generation of colonizers and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a house." --Moshe Dayan

I think you have a rough idea. If not, look at Israel's treatment of Arabs since the 1930s all the way up to today. The Lebanese people have experienced first-hand the racism and hatred of Israelis, one too many times.

Just bare in mind Hizballah wouldn't exist if it weren't for Israel's brutal invasion.

Hate breeds hate.