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Default Why donot Syria convert into the west?? - 21st September 2007

i have been thinking,..why does Syria insist on the eastern block represented now by Russia alone in arms deals??
i mean, according to what i know 100% of the syrian equipments are post-soviet or Russian
countries that have converted to the western weaponry and political aid have gained much more than what they got out of the eastern block.
Germany did after the union, Egypt did at the 80's and many other nations converted to the western weaponry and political aid and i think non of them regretted.
the west can offer Syria fare more economical, political, and military aid than Russia.
then why not??!!

Last edited by pharaoh_the_great; 21st September 2007 at 07:20 PM.. Reason: checking some thing. lol
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Default 21st September 2007

would u please say some thing paraquat.
i am waiting for u to say anything for a while and there was no response
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Default 21st September 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharaoh_the_great View Post
i have been thinking,..why does Syria insist on the eastern block represented now by Russia alone in arms deals??
i mean, according to what i know 100% of the syrian equipments are post-soviet or Russian
countries that have converted to the western weaponry and political aid have gained much more than what they got out of the eastern block.
Germany did after the union, Egypt did at the 80's and many other nations converted to the western weaponry and political aid and i think non of them regretted.
the west can offer Syria fare more economical, political, and military aid than Russia.
then why not??!!

Egypt turned to the west only after the peace with israel, so if Syria want to be supported by the western powers it should make peace with israel first, which mean stop being iran ally, stop support the terror groups in Iraq and Lebanon...
I guess that Syria want to be like in the western block, that its allies is western powers and not only Iran or north korea...(Russia is only weapons seller and not an ally), but the US and the Europian states won't accept it before the peace with israel.
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Default 22nd September 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by alon View Post
Egypt turned to the west only after the peace with israel, so if Syria want to be supported by the western powers it should make peace with israel first, which mean stop being iran ally, stop support the terror groups in Iraq and Lebanon...
I guess that Syria want to be like in the western block, that its allies is western powers and not only Iran or north korea...(Russia is only weapons seller and not an ally), but the US and the Europian states won't accept it before the peace with israel.
about if it has to make peace first, i am not sure. i mean the west offered iran technological and military support to abandon it's nuclear aims, however iran had formally stated the will to erase israel of the map.

and about abandoning iran for the sake of the western support, it seams a good deal to me lol.

besides, egypt and isreal made peace in 1978, thus the real conversion to te west started when soviet union was just about to end and it's continuous arms deal-delaying.

actually egypt started the arms conversion by a Mirage-5 deal with france and did not receive Phantoms till mid 80's. the first aim of the 4th generation fighters was the franch Mirage-2000 to be assembled locally at the AOI but the arabs pull out there share of the company and the numbers built were about 20 units only, lacking the enough economical resources beside aiming at gaining even further more political gainings; egypt bought the F-16s instead of assembling the Mirages.
leading to the point that peace with israel was not the main reason of the conversion and was not the reason that that goal was accomplished.

after all i think that maybe syria would have to make more than peace with israel in order to actually gain the western will to support; what helped egypt was mainly it's strategic value and the leading role in the region -maybe thats why russia is trying to regain that ally starting with the Mig-29 SMT's deal and china with the FC-1- , and what helped germany was mainly being the front-line state between the USSR and the west -i think- .

but what does syria have to offer to the west in return for it's support??
i guess that's the main question now.
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Default 22nd September 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharaoh_the_great View Post
about if it has to make peace first, i am not sure. i mean the west offered iran technological and military support to abandon it's nuclear aims, however iran had formally stated the will to erase israel of the map.

and about abandoning iran for the sake of the western support, it seams a good deal to me lol.

besides, egypt and isreal made peace in 1978, thus the real conversion to te west started when soviet union was just about to end and it's continuous arms deal-delaying.

actually egypt started the arms conversion by a Mirage-5 deal with france and did not receive Phantoms till mid 80's. the first aim of the 4th generation fighters was the franch Mirage-2000 to be assembled locally at the AOI but the arabs pull out there share of the company and the numbers built were about 20 units only, lacking the enough economical resources beside aiming at gaining even further more political gainings; egypt bought the F-16s instead of assembling the Mirages.
leading to the point that peace with israel was not the main reason of the conversion and was not the reason that that goal was accomplished.

after all i think that maybe syria would have to make more than peace with israel in order to actually gain the western will to support; what helped egypt was mainly it's strategic value and the leading role in the region -maybe thats why russia is trying to regain that ally starting with the Mig-29 SMT's deal and china with the FC-1- , and what helped germany was mainly being the front-line state between the USSR and the west -i think- .

but what does syria have to offer to the west in return for it's support??
i guess that's the main question now.
Well it isn't the only reason why the west don't support them (peace with israel) but it will help them a lot, of course they will need to stop the connection with Iran, and their support to the terror groups in Iraq, and there is more things, like the Hariri investigation...
Anyway, the israeli lobby has much more power than it has 20 years ago, today the relation of israel and USA are much more stronger than the past, so peace with israel will be a great step for them for joining to this "block".

But what they have to offer to the west in return? They have what any other arab country have, like Egypt, like Lebanon also...When they join to the west they weaken Iran/North Korea alliance, they help the American some how against the Russian which now left without great buyer,...

I'm sure the Syrian will be very happy to join this block, it is obvious, but something stop them, and this something is the golan height and the "war" with israel...After all, like you said it will be much more better to them to be an ally of the west than to be an ally of Iran or North Korea...
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Default 22nd September 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by alon View Post
Well it isn't the only reason why the west don't support them (peace with israel) but it will help them a lot, of course they will need to stop the connection with Iran, and their support to the terror groups in Iraq, and there is more things, like the Hariri investigation...
Anyway, the israeli lobby has much more power than it has 20 years ago, today the relation of israel and USA are much more stronger than the past, so peace with israel will be a great step for them for joining to this "block".

But what they have to offer to the west in return? They have what any other arab country have, like Egypt, like Lebanon also...When they join to the west they weaken Iran/North Korea alliance, they help the American some how against the Russian which now left without great buyer,...

I'm sure the Syrian will be very happy to join this block, it is obvious, but something stop them, and this something is the golan height and the "war" with israel...After all, like you said it will be much more better to them to be an ally of the west than to be an ally of Iran or North Korea...
maan!!!
what's that iran-N.Korea allience ur talking about??!!!
there is no such thing
besides mixing any 2 countries in the same perspective is way too wrong.......and u say arab countries are the same!!!

and russia is not a match for US, america has gained the strongest 2 countries in the region as allies "egypt and israel" or more likely gained egypt as it has israel from the beginning -and israel is in no way useful for US like egypt-
before the conversion, the arms race between israel and egypt was a great economical benefit for USA and USSR, but now it's all to the US
let's take a look on mid-eastern countries that use western weapons
-egypt : western, egyptian, chinese weapons with greater dependence on american arms and other arms deals with other nations on a smaller scale
-israel : western, israeli weapons with greater dependence on american arms and other arms deals with other nations on a smaller scale
-jordan : post-american weapons with greater dependence on britich arms
-gulf states : almost 100% western weapons with the greatest dependence on american arms for saudi arabia and on french arms for UAE. including other weapons from egypt at a smaller scale ex. Fahd-240 for kuwait

that show that with the fall of iraq, the only considerable russian arms buyer is syria. i think the west wont care much about it as it -syria- actually show no strong will to enter the arms race in the region.

and about the golan hights, i would have thought like u did if i did not actually know it from syrian members on other forums that the golan hights are no longer an aim for them -they were raised on the idea that while egypt accepted the cease-fire decision along with israel, the heroic syrain forces kept fighting the israelis "alone". ignoring the fact that the war ended with the IDF withdrawal from the canal to deep sinai while gained even more lands on the golan hights -maybe all of it- and was about to enter damascus with the land force but for the initial arab force send to defend it.
so...the dream to "free" the golan is dead!!

i can see that the discussion is getting more to egyptian-israeli-western relations rather than future syrian-western alliance.

let's keep egypt, palestine, and iraq out of the discussion because as i think they have no thing to do with the topic and mentioning egypt from the begining was just one of the examples on countries that have converted to the wast not even a side-topic
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Default 23rd September 2007

no one else is interested!!!
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Default 23rd September 2007

The balance of power goes way beyond what you guys are talking about!!!!!!

Syria cannot be interested in converting to western weaponery. It always wants to be the thorn hence their alliance with the Russians instead of the americans.

This is the new age Sikes-Picot, with a difference of Russian-US--- Shall we call it Bush-Putin?
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Default 23rd September 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharaoh_the_great View Post
no one else is interested!!!
Is Syria ready to recognize Lebanon as independent state?

Is Syria ready to concede Shebaa Farms to Lebanon?

Is Assad ready to give up power to something even remotely resembling democracy?

This is minimum price for joining West Assad will have to pay. Is he going to?

Even though Syria will surely benefit by joining West Assad or any dictator coming after will never do this.
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Default 23rd September 2007

I agree with Alon. If Syria wants to get Western weaponry, it must strike a peace deal with Israel first. Syria has been buying weapons from Russia for many decades, yet it has lost every war it ever fought against Israel. One would think that they'd learn by now which weaponry is more superior, I can't explain it except that maybe the Syrians like to waste money.
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