Terrorist Israeli Rabbi: stop acting like christians

[3asheq Beirut]

Originally Posted by Rainywinter

I suppose the only thing I can do is advise you to change your sources.
Its really sad to see some people are believing this, but as I said, I'm a first hand testimony that this is not true. The way that this sentence in the Torah is being taught widely is "Do Not Kill" period. I've never heard it is being taught differently.
I really think arguing over religions is futile, as it's subject to so many interpretations.
I'd still like to emphasis that one way or another, whatever is written in the Torah, in whatever way you wish to interpret it, holds little to no relevance about the way Israel is conducting itself.

Well whether or not you think the Torah holds any relevance to the way Israel is conducting itself, Israel is in fact behaving exactly as Yahweh commanded in the Torah. That is, killing, destroying, pillaging, maiming, raping, etc. I don't really care about the Torah and its interpretations were it not to have any effect on me and my people. My main concern is the suffering and plight of my people, and however you choose to explain Israel's actions leading to this suffering, I am opposed to it and I support the continued resistance to Israel's actions.

[Rainywinter]

Originally Posted by 3asheq Beirut

Well whether or not you think the Torah holds any relevance to the way Israel is conducting itself, Israel is in fact behaving exactly as Yahweh commanded in the Torah. That is, killing, destroying, pillaging, maiming, raping, etc. I don't really care about the Torah and its interpretations were it not to have any effect on me and my people. My main concern is the suffering and plight of my people, and however you choose to explain Israel's actions leading to this suffering, I am opposed to it and I support the continued resistance to Israel's actions.

The circumstantial killing, destroying and maiming is being done by all parties involved - not only by Israel. I can't deny that, I don't pretend to and nor can you deny that.
This is not black and white, and thinking that would probably never lead to a solution. We are all humans, we all have our reasons and our interests and no one is completely innocent in this long "affair".
It is pretty childish to believe one side is totally bad, and the other is completely good and innocent, if you'd ask me.

Pillaging and Raping? No. You got that one wrong. We have strong moral codes, and Pillaging and Raping is not part of how our Army conducts itself. If a soldier is caught doing those things, he is brought to full justice. And again - I'm telling you this first hand.
The bigger and more important question here is whether you, as a person, choose to continue the vicious circle of violence, or start working to stop it.
There would be no annihilation of one party. Not in the nearest future, and most probably not by a long shot. The only annihilation I can see, actually, is widespread.
If you really care about your people's plight and suffering, it's hard to understand how you would endorse the continuance of such "resistance", which is a nice way to say violence and destruction, whether you like it or not, when clearly it would only lead to more killing and destruction.

I actually feel that it's belittling Israel(is) and humankind when the only thing you think Israel is capable of is blind killing and destruction. That sounds really closed minded.
Obviously I could come here close minded as well, and not as open minded as I'd like to be, and to only be interested in spreading blind hatred and not give someone I don't even know the benefit of the doubt. I believe, essentially, most of us, at least, wish to pursue the same thing, and thats why it's also important to not come with prejudice when I'm initiating a dialog with someone who might think differently.

What Israeli actions that are directly related to you, right now, you oppose, and which practice would your recommend in order to deal with them?

[Aoun4lebanon]

Hear what this moron is saying and reflect to what the Israelies are currently doing.

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[Aoun4lebanon]

Yahweh Deuteronomy 7

The extermination order

7:1When Yahweh your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before you, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than you; 7:2and when Yahweh your God shall deliver them up before you, and you shall strike them; then you shall utterly destroy them: you shall make no covenant with them, nor show mercy to them;

No mixed weddings with the Canaanites
7:3neither shall you make marriages with them; your daughter you shall not give to his son, nor his daughter shall you take to your son.

Destroy the religious culture of Canaan people
7:5But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their engraved images with fire.

No pity for the Canaanites
7:16You shall consume all the peoples who Yahweh your God shall deliver to you; your eye shall not pity them...

Deuteronomy 12
Destruction of every sacred object or place of Canaan people
12:2You shall surely destroy all the places in which the nations that you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains, and on the hills, and under every green tree: 12:3and you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; and you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods; and you shall destroy their name out of that place.

Deuteronomy 20
The city surrenders: Payment of tributes
20:10When you draw near to a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace to it. 20:11It shall be, if it make you answer of peace, and open to you, then it shall be, that all the people who are found therein shall become tributary to you, and shall serve you.

The city resists: Extermination of males and booty (women, children and cattle)
20:12If it will make no peace with you, but will make war against you, then you shall besiege it: 20:13and when Yahweh your God delivers it into your hand, you shall strike every male of it with the edge of the sword: 20:14but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil of it, shall you take for a prey to yourself; and you shall eat the spoil of your enemies, which Yahweh your God has given you.

For the people of Canaan: complete extermination
20:15Thus shall you do to all the cities which are very far off from you, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16But of the cities of these peoples, that Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes; 20:17but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Yahweh your God has commanded you...

After reading can someone tell me if their mentality changed?

[Jorje]

It's amazing how so much ignorance can be packed in a three page thread.

Jews are a very diverse bunch and interpret the Torah (and the Talmud for that matter) in very different ways. Both conservative and reform Jews (and they make the majority of Jews in the West at least) do not take the Torah literally and Reform Jews think it should be perceived according with the time it was written in.

Orthodox Jews do take the literal world of the Hebrew Bible but within Orthodox Judaism there are also very different and diverse interpretations.

[Rainywinter]

Originally Posted by Aoun4lebanon

Hear what this moron is saying and reflect to what the Israelies are currently doing.

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Originally Posted by Aoun4lebanon

Yahweh Deuteronomy 7

The extermination order

7:1When Yahweh your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before you, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than you; 7:2and when Yahweh your God shall deliver them up before you, and you shall strike them; then you shall utterly destroy them: you shall make no covenant with them, nor show mercy to them;

No mixed weddings with the Canaanites
7:3neither shall you make marriages with them; your daughter you shall not give to his son, nor his daughter shall you take to your son.

Destroy the religious culture of Canaan people
7:5But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their engraved images with fire.

No pity for the Canaanites
7:16You shall consume all the peoples who Yahweh your God shall deliver to you; your eye shall not pity them...

Deuteronomy 12
Destruction of every sacred object or place of Canaan people
12:2You shall surely destroy all the places in which the nations that you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains, and on the hills, and under every green tree: 12:3and you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; and you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods; and you shall destroy their name out of that place.

Deuteronomy 20
The city surrenders: Payment of tributes
20:10When you draw near to a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace to it. 20:11It shall be, if it make you answer of peace, and open to you, then it shall be, that all the people who are found therein shall become tributary to you, and shall serve you.

The city resists: Extermination of males and booty (women, children and cattle)
20:12If it will make no peace with you, but will make war against you, then you shall besiege it: 20:13and when Yahweh your God delivers it into your hand, you shall strike every male of it with the edge of the sword: 20:14but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil of it, shall you take for a prey to yourself; and you shall eat the spoil of your enemies, which Yahweh your God has given you.

For the people of Canaan: complete extermination
20:15Thus shall you do to all the cities which are very far off from you, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16But of the cities of these peoples, that Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes; 20:17but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Yahweh your God has commanded you...

After reading can someone tell me if their mentality changed?

Look, if you choose to blindly believe that nonsense you posted has any relevance to anything, and if you choose to blindly submit to hatred, war and killing (from any source) and you're not going to change your mind about it, I'm not sure I can do anything about it.
If you choose to forfeit the opportunity to have a true glance of someone from the other side, and to wallow in negativity, prejudice and irrelevance, again, its your choice. I can't "force" you, but only to deploy my opinion and knowledge as an Israeli citizen.

There is no debate here. What you posted is wrong and unacceptable by all means. There is nearly (and I'm saying nearly for the benefit of the doubt and for the few fanatics that exist in every culture in every country) no one in Israel that would agree with that ****, really. What point are you trying to prove? That ignorance is wide-spread when it comes to Judaism and how it reflects on Israel?
I am trying to understand where you're coming from.
Do you really believe that what you posted is the common sense that is going around here?
If your answer to that would be yes, it saddens me greatly, as it only shows in what miserable situation we're in, when some of those we're conflicted with have so much prejudice on us and such little knowledge of us.
From watching at your post, you're trying to come off as knowledgeable, yet you have really no idea how far from the truth you are. And I'm really not trying to insult you, but just saying the truth.
Are you going to teach me about my countries' rules of conduct? About Judaism? About the common sense that is practiced around people in here?
How could you know?
You can't.

Lets assume you are posting this because this is really the only thing you were ever exposed to, and that's the only thing you actually believe in.
Wouldn't it just be insulting your intelligence?

I know, and understand, its easiest to "demonize" those you're conflicted with. To come close minded, with prejudice and blind hate. Surely it'd make aggression, violence, fear and hatred much more understandable. Although it's the easiest thing to do, its also one of the worst things you can do, and leads to nothing but negativity and ignorance.
You should understand that if you're like that, and you plan to keep being locked up in this position with no possibility of listening and enlightening yourself, don't expect much from the other side, as you will deny it from yourself.

[Aoun4lebanon]

[/quote]

Originally Posted by Rainywinter

Look, if you choose to blindly believe that nonsense you posted has any relevance to anything, and if you choose to blindly submit to hatred, war and killing (from any source) and you're not going to change your mind about it, I'm not sure I can do anything about it.

I dont expect you to do anything but to pack your bag and go back to Poland or where ever getto u came from.

If you choose to forfeit the opportunity to have a true glance of someone from the other side, and to wallow in negativity, prejudice and irrelevance, again, its your choice. I can't "force" you, but only to deploy my opinion and knowledge as an Israeli citizen.

I already know your opinion, since 1948 you only brought misery to our region. 1982 your occupied my capital and for 25 years till this day you occupied my land. So get the h*ll out of my land (Shib3a farm) before you %&"#^#@ come and preach your peace to me.

There is no debate here.

Exactly, go back to poland where you belong

What you posted is wrong and unacceptable by all means. There is nearly (and I'm saying nearly for the benefit of the doubt and for the few fanatics that exist in every culture in every country) no one in Israel that would agree with that ****, really. What point are you trying to prove? That ignorance is wide-spread when it comes to Judaism and how it reflects on Israel?

So are you saying maire kahana is a ghost?

I am trying to understand where you're coming from.

I come from Lebanon, I'm lebanese, I belong to this land, my ancestors lived in this land. Unlike you and the rest of the jews that were imported to Palestine.

Do you really believe that what you posted is the common sense that is going around here?
If your answer to that would be yes, it saddens me greatly, as it only shows in what miserable situation we're in, when some of those we're conflicted with have so much prejudice on us and such little knowledge of us.
From watching at your post, you're trying to come off as knowledgeable, yet you have really no idea how far from the truth you are. And I'm really not trying to insult you, but just saying the truth.
Are you going to teach me about my countries' rules of conduct? About Judaism? About the common sense that is practiced around people in here?
How could you know?
You can't.

Your government/s action speaks for itself, they have brought nothing but wars, violence in our region.

Lets assume you are posting this because this is really the only thing you were ever exposed to, and that's the only thing you actually believe in.
Wouldn't it just be insulting your intelligence?

We are saving all the intelligence to chosen people and we are nothing but goyems, remember.

I know, and understand, its easiest to "demonize" those you're conflicted with. To come close minded, with prejudice and blind hate. Surely it'd make aggression, violence, fear and hatred much more understandable. Although it's the easiest thing to do, its also one of the worst things you can do, and leads to nothing but negativity and ignorance.
You should understand that if you're like that, and you plan to keep being locked up in this position with no possibility of listening and enlightening yourself, don't expect much from the other side, as you will deny it from yourself.

As I said previously, I know, knew and will know in the future what to expect from your Government/s. They are nothing but a replica of atrocities, violence, aggression and murderers.

one last word here, YOU are my enemy, cause u still occupy my land, your jet fighters violate my countries airspace, you kidnap and kill my people in the south so dont expect any gestures. YOU reap what you sow, and yesterday brave attack was a good example to the killing of children in Gaza.

[Hye4Lebanon]

Guys and Gals, can you please leave personal attacks out of this thread?

Thanks

[3asheq Beirut]

Originally Posted by Rainywinter

The circumstantial killing, destroying and maiming is being done by all parties involved - not only by Israel. I can't deny that, I don't pretend to and nor can you deny that.
This is not black and white, and thinking that would probably never lead to a solution. We are all humans, we all have our reasons and our interests and no one is completely innocent in this long "affair".
It is pretty childish to believe one side is totally bad, and the other is completely good and innocent, if you'd ask me.

Look, we're not children here, and we weren't born yesterday. There is one side that occupied land and one side that is defending this land, period. I'm not talking of good or bad, or guilty or innocent, as these are all relative terms. I am talking of our right to defend our rights and our land from foreign aggressors. There is no way to equate the occupation of a land by people from a completely different region and the expulsion of the indigenous inhabitants of this land with those inhabitants' resistance to the occupation.

Pillaging and Raping? No. You got that one wrong. We have strong moral codes, and Pillaging and Raping is not part of how our Army conducts itself. If a soldier is caught doing those things, he is brought to full justice. And again - I'm telling you this first hand.
The bigger and more important question here is whether you, as a person, choose to continue the vicious circle of violence, or start working to stop it.
There would be no annihilation of one party. Not in the nearest future, and most probably not by a long shot. The only annihilation I can see, actually, is widespread.
If you really care about your people's plight and suffering, it's hard to understand how you would endorse the continuance of such "resistance", which is a nice way to say violence and destruction, whether you like it or not, when clearly it would only lead to more killing and destruction.

Yes we always get "first hand" accounts from all Israelis, as all of them were obviously serving in the Israeli military. Those accounts, unfortunately, are always at odds with the reality on the ground. Civilians being killed, raped, and maimed, their homes destroyed, and their fields and orchards uprooted. These are consistent and continous acts on the part of the Israelis, and your supposed reprimand and prosecution of soldiers partaking in such acts is pure nonsense. Investigations always lead to the conclusion that Israeli soldiers did nothing wrong, and in the event that the evidence is clear and indisputable they are given no more than a symbolic slap on the wrist.

I endorse resistance because I believe in a people's right to defend their land and their inalienable rights against a brutal aggressor that has shown nothing but killing and occupation. Sure, it's always easy to surrender and submit to the powerful, but those who are unwilling to undergo such humiliation will continue to fight and I cannot but support that. Otherwise, we should have condemned the French resistance for daring to resist German occupation. It sure would have saved more lives. Same with the Algerian resistance to French colonialism. Many Algerians would have been spared. But at what price? Wasn't it the American hero Patrick Henry who said "Is life so dear or peace so sweet to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbit it almighty God, I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death."

I actually feel that it's belittling Israel(is) and humankind when the only thing you think Israel is capable of is blind killing and destruction. That sounds really closed minded.
Obviously I could come here close minded as well, and not as open minded as I'd like to be, and to only be interested in spreading blind hatred and not give someone I don't even know the benefit of the doubt. I believe, essentially, most of us, at least, wish to pursue the same thing, and thats why it's also important to not come with prejudice when I'm initiating a dialog with someone who might think differently.

Look all this poetic drivel is meaningless to me. YOU came to a land inhabited by others. YOU occupied it. YOU expelled the natural inhabitants of this land. And YOU continued to force them to live in humiliation ever since. So please sell your speeches and lectures to someone else.

What Israeli actions that are directly related to you, right now, you oppose, and which practice would your recommend in order to deal with them?

I wish you would stop patronizing us at least. I know you know what you are doing and what kind of behavior you are practicing, so don't come here with these questions that aim merely to disguise Israel's nature and waste are time and energy. Israel from its very foundation has caused nothing but misery to our people because it cannot bring itself to respect others or treat them as human beings. What happened and is happening in Palestine is a horrendous crime against an entire people that can only be rectified with complete justice for the Palestinians.

[Rainywinter]

I'm really torn here.
On the one hand, it seems that your only wish in here is to vent your anger, degrade me aggressively and try to lure me into a flame war with pro-nazi & hateful comments and ill used misinformation. It also seems that you have no intention of giving me the basic respect any human being deserves, and to condemn me responsible for any (alleged) action made, while also being convinced I'm some sort of an agent or a representative of my government.
I'd really not like to be derailed into a flame war. I don't believe this is the way to go, and this is not the way to discuss serious matters like that.

However, on the other hand, although I surely won't fight flame with flame in here, I have this growing urge to correct you and try to overlook all the negativity you'd chosen to express your opinion with.
It's really a tough choice.

Originally Posted by Aoun4lebanon

I dont expect you to do anything but to pack your bag and go back to Poland or where ever getto u came from.

Sure.

I already know your opinion, since 1948 you only brought misery to our region. 1982 your occupied my capital and for 25 years till this day you occupied my land. So get the h*ll out of my land (Shib3a farm) before you %&"#^#@ come and preach your peace to me.

I don't think you know my opinion. It feels like you're generalizing. It surely doesn't seem you try to listen or comprehend my point of view or opinion.

You should use common sense here and realize several things. One, while I would, and the majority of people in Israel, happily totally evacuate Shebaa farms, it is not as simple as it may look. It is a process, and there are many factors involved including and not limited to all sorts of agreements and involvement of various sources.
See, if you had bothered to listen to my opinion, you had seen I've no interest in the Shebaa farms nor am I against returning it. Why does it not happen? As I said, its a complex situation and it takes time.
And no, I'm not going to change my mind and say I don't think we should give it back, just because you're being aggressive and hateful.

Exactly, go back to poland where you belong

Right.

So are you saying maire kahana is a ghost?

No. I never said that.
But you should also realize that he is extremely irrelevant because he represents a smaller group of fanatics that have nearly no effect whatsoever.
All those things you mentioned previously are severely condemned in here and have nothing to do with the reality we live in.
Might it be from extensive propaganda and blind hate? Maybe.
You choose to generalize and turn him and his views into the global Israeli view, and thats so far from the truth. You really have no idea how much. It's pretty hard to understand why would you rather focusing on some fanatic's irrelevant voice, rather than being comforted that it's just not how the reality in here is.

I come from Lebanon, I'm lebanese, I belong to this land, my ancestors lived in this land. Unlike you and the rest of the jews that were imported to Palestine.

Thats not true. There were Jews, even if in much smaller numbers, on this land prior to 1948 and prior the holocaust.
And as said before, how far back are you going to look at?
There wasn't a Palestinian Country in here, you do know that, right?
In anyway, we really, really shouldn't discuss this issue further.
It holds little relevance to the situation we're in today. I'm convinced we're not going to agree on this in either way, and besides it's a huge, whole other issue that doesn't really deserves a comment here and there.
Bottom line: this issue and it's merits have little to non influence for the possible solutions for the situation and conflicts we're facing right now.
Note: I'm not saying the situation we're facing today isn't related to what happened in the past. It surely is. I just don't think it can help us much if we want to achieve an awaken and sensible solution for the current conflicts.

Your government/s action speaks for itself, they have brought nothing but wars, violence in our region.
As I said previously, I know, knew and will know in the future what to expect from your Government/s. They are nothing but a replica of atrocities, violence, aggression and murderers.

Again, I believe it is kind of childish to claim it is all about good and bad. I can acknowledge both sides have had their fair share of mistakes. Can you?

We are saving all the intelligence to chosen people and we are nothing but goyems, remember.

Now, don't put words into my mouth.
Its a bad stereotype, in which I don't believe and it serves little for your argument.

one last word here, YOU are my enemy, cause u still occupy my land, your jet fighters violate my countries airspace, you kidnap and kill my people in the south so dont expect any gestures. YOU reap what you sow, and yesterday brave attack was a good example to the killing of children in Gaza.

It feels and seems like I am your enemy because you choose me to be one. As I tried to explain earlier, every side has casualties, broken dreams and shattered families. It is really hard for me to accept that you actually think Israel as benefiting or enjoying the conflict we're facing by any means.
Wake up. Try to shake off the prejudice and see through the negative propaganda and blind hatred some people are spreading.