Syria vs Israel

[alon]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

alon,do yourself a favor and rely on Wikipedia only as an ordinnary dictionnary.Not more.

BTW i checked the sources of you article and the only one that claims what you think is a fact, is this one:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-...y-Aug+2006.htm

It's the Israel ministry of foreign affairs......



I never complained when Israel decided to get at war.I am not here to blame it for doing what it thinks is best for it.(Although i know it is not doing what is of its best interest but that's another story...)

All i am saying is that when a country proclaims itself as a modern democracy,i would expect from it to behave like one.

I expect from the Israeli citizens to refuse (not to give excuses) that their country uses illegal and immoral means in its wars.

So it's not the breaking of the "rules of armistice" that i am talking about.Those rules,believe me ,i never expect Israel to respect them anyway.

No,i'm talking about the "rules of engagement"...the "rules of war"....

When you want to fight a war,you should have the decency to "fight clean",especially when you have all it needs to do it.

Hitting cities and villages with 3 million cluster bombs 24 hours before the cessation of hostilities is not only an act of cowardise, but also an act of weakness revealed by a vicious will to get revenge on civilians.

HA could have done worse than this anytime, and you wouldn't be able by now to see the north of Israel.But what would be the purpose?

It is this free hate and free killing that is consuming your society's moral grounds.

And i'm just telling you how sorry i am to see this,while you are the one who should be worrying about this.

BTW,i would never have accepted that the LA behave in Nahr El Bared like the IDF behave in last July war in Lebanon.

I am not trying to score some points, but i would really have felt ashamed.

I see others armies around the world, US, UK, Russia, France...Not one of them has the values of the IDF for my opinion.
No one of this armies warn the people where they are going to hit, No one of this armies send soldiers inside houses because it want to avoide from killing civilians...
I know that you don't beleive this, but I as an ex IDF soldiers know a little bit more than you about it, I know it weakness, it strength, I know what order we get in the first day of the service, what values they teach...
I am not saying here thing because I heard it from my leaders, or because I think it, or because the media...I am saying this because I saw it in my own eyes...Check this, in the IDF if you are killing civilian, no matter who, no matter if he is an enemy or a friend you will be investigated by your commanders, by the police and by other bodies...I am not ashamed because I know the true, I saw it...The peole who fought in the war are not strange to me, the are working with me, some of them are my friends, some of them are from my family, some of them I know from school...And we are talk, beleive me, all this papers that we bring here are nothing compared to true testimonies.
Most of the people I know hate the army, not like you of course, but they hate almost everything inside it, they are not some brainwashed, or some patriotic, on the contrary...But in this case they know the true...Sorry but I won't be ashamed from something that I don't believe it happend...

And for the rockets, I remember it opend the news I willl try to find another links...I have no time right now.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

My original answer was to what you said:

"it (The Israeli harsh reaction) also should be an obligation and it must become unbreakable rule. Israel's response in similar situations must become fully predictable."

This is in fact what Israel has been trying for a long time to convince the arabs of:"If you dare think to touch me,my reaction will be brutal beyound your imagination"

Thus Israel's frequent and constant "over-reactions".....

This is a typical "Psychological warfare" method.It has been practiced throughout ages and has been particullarly mastered by the Germans in WW2 towards the French resistance,by always hitting back brutally on innocent civilians,with a retaliatory show off.

Israel is using it against Arabs and it worked for a while,i might say.

But you have to make some balance when you work according to "the stick or the carrot" method.

And Israel was so drunk of its military might, that it thought it would not need the carrot anymore.(Just like the basis of the clean-break policy that was advised to Benyamin Netenyahu,and that is now enforced by the Neocons)

So it was the stick all the way....and even if you are good , you had to have the stick from time to time....just so that you don't forget.

So, when Israel abused its power so much,the perception of the Arab street became that, people will be anyway brutally agressed,whether they attack Israel or not.

This is when Israel began to loose the "psychological warfare" ground.

And when Israel showed strategical signs of weaknesses,(July war),i guess that it finished off all advantage Israel had on the "psychological warfare" ground.

And this is just towards the "weak arabs",the "little student" and not towards the "allmighty"and the "big boss" ,Iran.

And btw,Iran is not afraid of a nuclear strike.Israel knows very well that at the first nuke strike,Iran would destroy it,even with conventional weapons.

The size of Israel and the concentration of its infrastructures and populations is a very very weak point, should the 2 countries come to such extremities.

As for the humble peaceful person that i am,i would only hope for a full final fair and just peace treaty between all the belligerant parties,with a genuine and honest nuke free middle east program.

"<b>Israel's response in similar situations must become fully predictable</b>"

It has to do with cost/benefit relationship. Ever since 1948 State of Israel was under attack one way or the other.
At the same time as you correctly put it Israel is very vulnerable strategically because of its small size.
So, the only option remains for Israel is to make cost so high that nobody would even think of touching this hot potato.
Harsh response must come at slightest provocation.

With that said, I would too prefer there'd be peace. Unfortunately, I do not see basis for it yet.

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

......
All i am saying is that when a country proclaims itself as a modern democracy,i would expect from it to behave like one.

I expect from the Israeli citizens to refuse (not to give excuses) that their country uses illegal and immoral means in its wars.

..........

this seems quite 'democratic' to me, (I heard the lawyers on radio today trying to get this in court, I heard the "opposition" as well, it really didn't sound like nobody has anything to say - on the contrary, I would conclude: all that called-in about this had v-e-r-y much to say)

source

Right-wing parties angered by Shehadeh probe


Prosecution to set up independent commission to probe assassination of Hamas commander Shehadeh in 2002 Gaza airstrike

Aviram Zino Published: 09.18.07, 12:55 / Israel News




Right-wing parties are angered by the prosecution's decision to set up an independent commission to probe the assassination of Hamas commander Salah Shehadeh five years ago in an airstrike on his Gaza home that left over a dozen civilians dead.

[verus libano]

As an American of Lebanese origin I am not ashamed to say that I support Israel in its war against Syria and Hezbollah.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by verus libano

As an American of Lebanese origin I am not ashamed to say that I support Israel in its war against Syria and Hezbollah.

As a lebanese of Lebanese origin i am ashamed of such people like you...

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by tsedek

this seems quite 'democratic' to me, (I heard the lawyers on radio today trying to get this in court, I heard the "opposition" as well, it really didn't sound like nobody has anything to say - on the contrary, I would conclude: all that called-in about this had v-e-r-y much to say)

source

Tsedek,

Those are all procedures and procedures and....procedures....Talks....talks...

I agree that sometimes there could be a small outcome,but most of the times,there is nothing but a very mediatic start,and a very discrete exit.

Until the reality on the ground changes,what is really the use of punishing this or that soldier,or this or that particullar accident?

Besides,i am not talking about individual faults,but about state behavior.This is where it gets really hard to change.

I specifically talked about 3 million cluster bombs that were thrown blindly and deliberatly during the last 24 hours before the cessation of hostilities.(Totally useless unless for killing innocent people)

Is anybody in Israel prosecuting such criminal behavior?Can you garantee that theese kind of things won't happen again?

How could we qualifie a democracy that has such behaviors?

(Actually i am thinking of opening a thread about "modern democracy,judged and evaluated according to internal and external behaviors"...We'll definetly talk...)

[verus libano]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

As a lebanese of Lebanese origin i am ashamed of such people like you...

I'm ashamed of people like you that allow my country of origin to become Syria and Iran's method of indirect retaliation against Israel.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by alon

The people who fought in the war are not strange to me, the are working with me, some of them are my friends, some of them are from my family, some of them I know from school...And we are talk, beleive me, all this papers that we bring here are nothing compared to true testimonies.

...Sorry but I won't be ashamed from something that I don't believe it happend...

Alon,

The vision you have from the IDF is very subjective,because you are projecting thoughts and feelings you have for individual soldiers ,on it.

If i take soldiers individually,and i speak to each one of them,believe me,the war could be over from long time ago.

But i'm rather talking about the whole corp of the IDF.And the way it has become a tool for harm and hate and murders,rather then for a defense purpose.

For example,when you give a pilot coordinnates to bomb,sometimes,even the IDF ignores what lies underneath.It just executes orders.

But those who give orders,have all the information and know very well what they are doing and why.

It is not about what is written in the code of conduct of the soldier's manual and not about orders that the soldier is given.

Because i am not talking about individual faults and behaviors,but about state behavior.(Sometimes just the high command behavior)

The outcome is that i see the IDF, not according to the "mood" there is inside it, but according to the reality that results from its actions on the ground.

The 3 million cluster bombs example is one of many,and it is not a matter that makes the IDF record worth of any pride.

Besides,the Army always reflects its country and its people.If you really care to stay on the civilised side of earth,you should not accept such behaviors.

You can win wars by many other ways you know...

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

So, the only option remains for Israel is to make cost so high that nobody would even think of touching this hot potato.
Harsh response must come at slightest provocation.

That is exactly what i was talking about.If your ennemy is convinced of that,then you would have an advantage on him,on the "psychological warfare" ground.

But Israel had this advantage for many years,yet lost it gradually according to what i previously elaborated on....

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

With that said, I would too prefer there'd be peace. Unfortunately, I do not see basis for it yet.

I agree with you on that,yet hope that we are both wrong.

[alon]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

You can win wars by many other ways you know...

You touch here in very deep point...
Which ways?
For my opinion, no army in the world can "win" war like this, and this is the whole point of my argument in my recent posts...
Look around the world, look at the whole 21 centuries wars, it is always the same, one group can "win" huge state, huge army, they always win.
They win in Irland, they win in Afghanistan, they win in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan again, Algiers...etc...And look how many innocent civilians died in those places by the most Liberals countires in the world, which all the time preach israel about humanity and liberalism...UK for example, its journalists excommunicate israel, not that I really care, but do they look sometime in the mirror, how many people died around the world because of their state?

Anyway, my point is that those countries like the US, UK, France can allow themseld this kind of "losts"...Why? because they fight 1000 kilometers from home, they fight for 10 years maximum...Now take those countries and put them in israel shoes....Can you imagine what would happen if some group in Mexico, not some country, but some group will shoot rockets on Texas for 6 years? Can you? Be honest...In 9/11, for one attack they conquer two countries just for their ego...I don't want to imagine what would happen if it was two attacks, or 50, or 70...the same go for what happend in WW2, Hiroshima, Dresden etc...

And now take Russia and Chechnia, here is an example of winning...But what was the cost of the Russian victory, how many innocent Chechnian civilians died for this Russian victory which is the only example that I find in the "war on terrorism"?

Now, what is my point? Israel fight for 60 years even more, and israel isn't a superpower or empire, israel is small country size of New Jersy, most of its people served in the army, most of its people know quite about military...And still, it has one of the best court system in the world, high standart of democracy, and yes its army even with all this wars are still normal army compare to other armies around the world...And yes I agree with you about the cluster bombs and other things, but as you know every thing in life is proportional, and I think we still succeed to be a noramal and democracy country even after 60 years of war, I don't think it is something obvious at all...

In any war civilians will die, especially in wars like the second Lebanon war...You want that civilians will not die? I want it too, so lets agree on not involve them in the war, not fight from thier centers, not bomb them, not use them...
But if you want the other way, from an objective view I think it is the best for you and the only chance for a militia to win an army, but I must warn you, that after few years of fighting like this with you and with the Palestinians you will see different israel, israel that is very similar to Russia in Chechnia, Israel without the democracy, an israel which you will miss to the israel which fight with you in 2006...And now Abu Sandal, really, I don't want to score points here or something I try to be the most honest and objective that I can, I think that israel is going to this way...And then? In the moment that you will put on it some kind of fighting don't expect from it to act different than you, that why I told you before that you can't expect from us to be different than you, it isn't obviously, it isn't logical...Even that we are democracy...