Syria vs Israel

[alon]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

What?....What?.....
Are you trying to re-write history?!!
Peuuuleaaase....can you enlighten us about those events?

Of course I can, in the 12 of july, in the same minutes of the kidnaping, HA shoot on israel towns and other civilians centers Katyusha rockets, before any IDF action...;

From wikipedia:

"At around 9:00 AM local time (06:00 UTC) on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah launched diversionary rocket attacks toward Israeli military positions near the coast and near the border village of Zar'it as well as on the Israeli town of Shlomi and other villages"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Is...banon_conflict

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Anyway,

So now,according to you,you finally recognize that the kidnapping of 2 soldiers is not a valid reason to wage a "full scale war".

It was the straw who broke the camel back.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

You have always a legitimate reason,and the other one is always wrong.
Wrong reason,...and if plausible reason,...wrong timing,....and if plausible timing,....wrong means,....and if plausible means,....wrong place,....and if plausible place,....wrong reason...And so on.

So you should be our Thermometer,our Barometer....

And we should not bother to think or act,because you would be here to think on our behalf and to act accordingly.

Well not anymore.

Things are not just mediatic or rethoric issues anymore.It's not about who is right and who is wrong anymore.

Actually I totally agree with you here Abu Sandal, things are not rethoric issues, but it is the same for you...

For some reason you expect from us not to be like you...You, as you said to me, can find all the time excuse, and articles who justify you, or some other reason...But you forget that the other side can do what you do easily...

I truly think that you pushed us to behave like this, but after all it will be your problem and Syria problem...
Israel maybe violate Syria airspace, and maybe what I'm saying here is ********, after all, israeli airpalnes enter the Syria airspace, and I can talk all day, but it is exactly the same for your arguments...

Syria has the full right to react/ attack israel, israel has the full right to attack/react Syria, HA has also rights...Every one can do what they want to do...
But one thing they can't do, they can't expect from the other side to act differently...And for some reason, you expect from us to act differently.

You can't kidnap soldiers and start war and expect that the other won't initiate anymore and just react...
You can't shoot 3000 rockets on civilians and expect that the other side will act differently....
You can't hide the soldiers fate from their families and not letting the red cross to see them and expect that the other will let your prisoners this "bonuses"...
You can't fight from civilians centers and expect that the other won't act the same, or won't bomb this sites...

The UN has clear rules, but when one side break off this rules, I don't see any reason for the other side to act differently.

And I know what is going to be your response, "so you addmit that your army breake off the rules?" No, I really don't, but the big question here is why do you expect from us not to break off the rules...

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I understand what you mean from the Iraeli point of view.Yet there are 2 holes in this strategy:

1-Israel always find a way to aggress the other without even being touched.Which means that i get the stick wether i behave good or bad.

2-Israel failed to protect not only itself,but also its soldiers during the July war.If it wasn't from the cessation of hostilities and the goodwill of HA to honour its engagement,few thousands of Israeli soldiers were already trapped behind the ennemy lines and already starving and fading of thirst.They were dropped 48 hours before the ceasefire by helicopters , hoping that they could encircle HA lines.It turned out that HA lines are not fixed ones and that they can form and reform at will.So the commandos were trapped like rabbits.

Conclusion:When you always act mean anyway,and when you turn out to be weaker than you thought,you are not really credible enough to make your ennemy fear anything from you,should he act against your will.

BTW,this is why Israel always use the "terror strategy" in its wars:Spectacular civilian damages and casualties,in order to spread terror ,not only during the conflict itself,but in the hearts and minds of future generations.

This does not work anymore.On the countrary,it boosts our moral.(I don't know why btw.)

To number 1, I do not find Israel as being aggressive. I cannot see when they attacked any country except in response to hostile action.

To number 2, this information is totally new to me. I had no idea things were so dire for Israelis in the summer of 2006. I sure would like to read more about it. All this time I was under impression that Nasrallah begged for peace through Seniora and that HA got saved by the bell. Apparently my information was wrong.

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

....

1-Israel always find a way to aggress the other without even being touched.Which means that i get the stick wether i behave good or bad.

.....

I have for so long already and not only here on this forum, called for a time-based chronological list of events (perpetrations) of both sides.


Don't you also think that this would be the only 'evidence' in blaming one-another?


I was thinking about list each and everyone can add their re-collection (with proof of course) of perpetrations to and add in a timely form.


Why wouldn't we, just 'regular' people start such a project, so at least we are not throwing vacuum accusations at each other?

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

To number 1, I do not find Israel as being aggressive. I cannot see when they attacked any country except in response to hostile action.

Maybe...But maybe not.
My point was not necessarly about "facts" (although there are enough proofs) but about "perceptions".
Psychological warfare and deterrance are mainly about perceptions.....

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by tsedek

Why wouldn't we, just 'regular' people start such a project, so at least we are not throwing vacuum accusations at each other?

I bet we would even differ on the fact itself......

I think we should rather establish a genuine road map to get out of this vicious circle.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Maybe...But maybe not.
My point was not necessarly about "facts" (although there are enough proofs) but about "perceptions".
Psychological warfare and deterrance are mainly about perceptions.....

I am not sure I understand what you mean but I am willing to accept the fact of psychological warfare as existent. In fact I would be very much surprised if it did not exist. Cold war was psychological warfare. But it was not hot war and as such does not qualify as aggression. Iran and Israel are engaged in this type of war but it is not aggression. Let's just see who will blink first or at all.

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I bet we would even differ on the fact itself......

I think we should rather establish a genuine road map to get out of this vicious circle.

yep. but even so, you know, like i know, that this blamegame will surface again....

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by tsedek

yep. but even so, you know, like i know, that this blamegame will surface again....

Yes i know.....i know....unfortunately.

And it is so frustrating to see things happening before your eyes and not be able to do anything about them....

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

I am not sure I understand what you mean but I am willing to accept the fact of psychological warfare as existent. In fact I would be very much surprised if it did not exist. Cold war was psychological warfare. But it was not hot war and as such does not qualify as aggression. Iran and Israel are engaged in this type of war but it is not aggression. Let's just see who will blink first or at all.

My original answer was to what you said:

"it (The Israeli harsh reaction) also should be an obligation and it must become unbreakable rule. Israel's response in similar situations must become fully predictable."

This is in fact what Israel has been trying for a long time to convince the arabs of:"If you dare think to touch me,my reaction will be brutal beyound your imagination"

Thus Israel's frequent and constant "over-reactions".....

This is a typical "Psychological warfare" method.It has been practiced throughout ages and has been particullarly mastered by the Germans in WW2 towards the French resistance,by always hitting back brutally on innocent civilians,with a retaliatory show off.

Israel is using it against Arabs and it worked for a while,i might say.

But you have to make some balance when you work according to "the stick or the carrot" method.

And Israel was so drunk of its military might, that it thought it would not need the carrot anymore.(Just like the basis of the clean-break policy that was advised to Benyamin Netenyahu,and that is now enforced by the Neocons)

So it was the stick all the way....and even if you are good , you had to have the stick from time to time....just so that you don't forget.

So, when Israel abused its power so much,the perception of the Arab street became that, people will be anyway brutally agressed,whether they attack Israel or not.

This is when Israel began to loose the "psychological warfare" ground.

And when Israel showed strategical signs of weaknesses,(July war),i guess that it finished off all advantage Israel had on the "psychological warfare" ground.

And this is just towards the "weak arabs",the "little student" and not towards the "allmighty"and the "big boss" ,Iran.

And btw,Iran is not afraid of a nuclear strike.Israel knows very well that at the first nuke strike,Iran would destroy it,even with conventional weapons.

The size of Israel and the concentration of its infrastructures and populations is a very very weak point, should the 2 countries come to such extremities.

As for the humble peaceful person that i am,i would only hope for a full final fair and just peace treaty between all the belligerant parties,with a genuine and honest nuke free middle east program.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by alon

Of course I can, in the 12 of july, in the same minutes of the kidnaping, HA shoot on israel towns and other civilians centers Katyusha rockets, before any IDF action...;

From wikipedia:

"At around 9:00 AM local time (06:00 UTC) on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah launched diversionary rocket attacks toward Israeli military positions near the coast and near the border village of Zar'it as well as on the Israeli town of Shlomi and other villages"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Is...banon_conflict

alon,do yourself a favor and rely on Wikipedia only as an ordinnary dictionnary.Not more.

BTW i checked the sources of you article and the only one that claims what you think is a fact, is this one:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-...y-Aug+2006.htm

It's the Israel ministry of foreign affairs......

Originally Posted by alon

And I know what is going to be your response, "so you addmit that your army breake off the rules?" No, I really don't, but the big question here is why do you expect from us not to break off the rules...

I never complained when Israel decided to get at war.I am not here to blame it for doing what it thinks is best for it.(Although i know it is not doing what is of its best interest but that's another story...)

All i am saying is that when a country proclaims itself as a modern democracy,i would expect from it to behave like one.

I expect from the Israeli citizens to refuse (not to give excuses) that their country uses illegal and immoral means in its wars.

So it's not the breaking of the "rules of armistice" that i am talking about.Those rules,believe me ,i never expect Israel to respect them anyway.

No,i'm talking about the "rules of engagement"...the "rules of war"....

When you want to fight a war,you should have the decency to "fight clean",especially when you have all it needs to do it.

Hitting cities and villages with 3 million cluster bombs 24 hours before the cessation of hostilities is not only an act of cowardise, but also an act of weakness revealed by a vicious will to get revenge on civilians.

HA could have done worse than this anytime, and you wouldn't be able by now to see the north of Israel.But what would be the purpose?

It is this free hate and free killing that is consuming your society's moral grounds.

And i'm just telling you how sorry i am to see this,while you are the one who should be worrying about this.

BTW,i would never have accepted that the LA behave in Nahr El Bared like the IDF behave in last July war in Lebanon.

I am not trying to score some points, but i would really have felt ashamed.