The Story of Palestine from A to X

[amalhope]

Originally Posted by Salome

I saw the video, it's a very good one:)

Well surely the sides in strength are not equal, but you think the world would accept a solution which makes only the arabs happy?

When you are the more powerful side what makes you happy becomes more and more selfish. I already said that a one-state solution, which is a compromise, could work with tolerance-building plus education on both sides. I didn't say let's bring the Palestinian refugees back and throw the Jews into the sea!! Why wouldn't a one-state solution be acceptable and make Israeli Jews happy once racism is eradicated and tolerance is inculcated in their souls?

Originally Posted by Salome

On the other hand will we really accept that all human lives are equally valuable, regardless of religion and nationality. Meaning a jew's life is equally valuable as an arab's life and vice versa?

All Israeli Jews have to accept it first. Most of them relegated Palestinians to lower ranks of human beings and committed or supported the atrocities against Palestinians. Had it not been for that, Israel would have never become a state. Today, hatred is reciprocal and it has been for over 60 years, and the solution I talked about above seems to be the only humane solution to both sides, if we could get it to work.

Originally Posted by Salome

Am sorry but the right of return, however just it is, is not realistic. At least in the next decades to come.

I, unfortunately, do not see it happening in the foreseeabe future, but just because it's near impossible today it doesn't mean it's not what should happen. Injustice will remain injustice regardless of whether we have the capacity to correct it or not.

Originally Posted by Salome

Tell me about that thin line...I was giving once a speech on Hamas and Hezbollah, and some academic/governmental @ssholes found my speech too biased and felt kinda offended how I dare to show them facts about the Israeli aggression and how I dare call HA and Hamas resistence....no chance in the western mainstream media they are considered terrorists

I think both Hamas and Hizballah's discourse is not fit for dialogue nor proclamation to the rest of the world. It's too archaic, exclusive, narrow-minded, and discriminatory at times. Although I find Hizballah much more systematic and they know what they're doing more than Hamas, both don't stand a chance of being viewed as legitimate resistance movements by the populace of Western countries. With such movements, even at home a lot of Lebanese and Palestinians only back them up when it comes to certain issues and certain actions. Some of their actions may be viewed as resistance, while other actions might be viewed objectionably.

I don't know... it's a complex issue because even legitimate resistance through the course of history involved terrorism of some sort. When you fight a war in defence of your country you use violent means in hopes of terrorizing your enemy. I wish the world knew how to deal with such matters peacefully and without any loss in human lives, but things are not that way.

I for one, do not support entities or parties or leaders, I support - when I do - certain actions or stands.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by amalhope

When you are the more powerful side what makes you happy becomes more and more selfish. I already said that a one-state solution, which is a compromise, could work with tolerance-building plus education on both sides. I didn't say let's bring the Palestinian refugees back and throw the Jews into the sea!! Why wouldn't a one-state solution be acceptable and make Israeli Jews happy once racism is eradicated and tolerance is inculcated in their souls?

How realistic is that? Israel doesn't want a one-state solution first (it would eliminate Israel istelf) and then it is also not possible within a forseeable future to bring together in 1 society the two sides.
The best of the bad solutions so far was the 1947 one, I don't see how the decades of violance could have reached a better one. But now even there is no going back to 1947.

That tolerance building and reconciliation through education will take a verrryyyyy long time, I don't think you can reach it soon. But for a start one could work on the enlightenment of young israelis maybe, that they should drop the disastrous ostrich policy of their fathers and to show them their real history and not the lie they believe in...am not sure it is possible, the jews prooved all through the history that they stick together no matter what no matter what price if their existence is threatened...

I, unfortunately, do not see it happening in the foreseeabe future, but just because it's near impossible today it doesn't mean it's not what should happen. Injustice will remain injustice regardless of whether we have the capacity to correct it or not.

Therefore we need to set some facts straight in the world history books as well...so that the international opinion might change

I think both Hamas and Hizballah's discourse is not fit for dialogue nor proclamation to the rest of the world. It's too archaic, exclusive, narrow-minded, and discriminatory at times. Although I find Hizballah much more systematic and they know what they're doing more than Hamas, both don't stand a chance of being viewed as legitimate resistance movements by the populace of Western countries. With such movements, even at home a lot of Lebanese and Palestinians only back them up when it comes to certain issues and certain actions. Some of their actions may be viewed as resistance, while other actions might be viewed objectionably.

I asked about this once a Fatah affiliated official, who himself has been a refugee all his life in various countries...even if he didn't approve of violance he said somehow he understands it desperation drives you to violence as a last resort, and he couldn't really condemn Hamas.

Of course who would approve of their extreme stance and sadly the children are the biggest victims here, who are forced to grow up amidst violence and see that hating the others is part of their existence...long way to go to any peace, if ever

I don't know... it's a complex issue because even legitimate resistance through the course of history involved terrorism of some sort. When you fight a war in defence of your country you use violent means in hopes of terrorizing your enemy. I wish the world knew how to deal with such matters peacefully and without any loss in human lives, but things are not that way.

ah and don't forget to add the foreign factor, the interest of the big powers, who of course are ready to overlook unjust regimes or even support terrorism when it suits their interest and condemn it when that suits their interest

I for one, do not support entities or parties or leaders, I support - when I do - certain actions or stands.

Like do you trust rather the will of the people and some civic initiatives? Well will we see a day when both in Israel and Palestine the masses go out to the street and protest NO to violence...sounds strange no? and like a wishful thinking

[amalhope]

Originally Posted by Salome

How realistic is that? Israel doesn't want a one-state solution first (it would eliminate Israel istelf) and then it is also not possible within a forseeable future to bring together in 1 society the two sides.

Because Israel sees that "might is right". Israel is more powerful and doesn't want to make any concessions. The one-state solution is the only just solution to the problem, and Israel does not want justice. In the end, it's a terrorist state. That's why there's no solution as of yet, and that's why the violence continues on and on... and yes, education and awareness-building takes a lot of time and effort.

Violence, by the way, is not a choice for Palestinians. It's imposed on them.

Originally Posted by Salome

the jews prooved all through the history that they stick together no matter what no matter what price if their existence is threatened...

And it's unfortunate what religious brainwashing does to human beings. Religion, I guess, is generally teaching humans to be selfish and to stick with their own "kind" no matter what.

Originally Posted by Salome

NO to violence...sounds strange no? and like a wishful thinking

I wish for that day to come too!

[Salome]

Originally Posted by amalhope

Because Israel sees that "might is right". Israel is more powerful and doesn't want to make any concessions. The one-state solution is the only just solution to the problem, and Israel does not want justice. In the end, it's a terrorist state. That's why there's no solution as of yet, and that's why the violence continues on and on... and yes, education and awareness-building takes a lot of time and effort.

There will be no absolute just solution satisfying everybody, a one-state is just not viable and not feasible in the forseeable future...and why talk about things which will happen maybe 100s of years later

So in my view only a two state solution is viable...and both parties shall make a compromise, nobody can go back to the pre 1948 state...unless one wants a never ending full scale war...

Violence, by the way, is not a choice for Palestinians. It's imposed on them.

That's true

And it's unfortunate what religious brainwashing does to human beings. Religion, I guess, is generally teaching humans to be selfish and to stick with their own "kind" no matter what.

and all religions teach that, don't they? Not just the jews the muslims do the same...when their belief or very existence is threatened they radicalize, and they are more vulnarable for brainwashing etc...and there you will have religious zealots on both sides with unrealistic claims...

I wish for that day to come too!

Good...but we won't quarrel over how to hold the banner, right?:D

[amalhope]

Originally Posted by Salome

and all religions teach that, don't they? Not just the jews the muslims do the same...

Yes, my comment was not specific to one religion.

Originally Posted by Salome

Good...but we won't quarrel over how to hold the banner, right?:D

By the time this day comes - if it comes - we'll be sick and tired of quarreling, especially those of us who write on this forum :D We get more quarreling exposure than the rest of humankind :S

[Salome]

Originally Posted by amalhope

By the time this day comes - if it comes - we'll be sick and tired of quarreling, especially those of us who write on this forum :D We get more quarreling exposure than the rest of humankind :S

What I meant is to not to get lost in silly details and suddenly loosing the cause...like how does it help when someone labels me a zionist while am "fighting" for Palestine etc...

Don't worry we won't get tired, because we believe in dialogue and non-violence and all those too who are on this forum...it is also a hope:)