Shameless

[Salome]

Originally Posted by tsedek

well, let's take this a step further down. let's break it down into small pieces and see:

when people stop blaming (a weak brew of attacking) 'the other' and be completely absorbed into telling their own misfortune... it helps. no attacks, verbal or physical, are 'helping' one's misfortune to change: on the contrary... it keeps politicians, weapon dealers, multinationals etc. etc. growing stronger and 'us' suffering. So:

though it may take Y-E-A-R-S and probably more, I think not playing the 'proud' card and not being misled into thinking that honesty means humiliation- keep on telling the hardships is a far stronger 'weapon' a 'democratic' (and 'humane') world can deal with.

violence didn't get the Palestinians anywhere (it got nobody anywhere to be precise) so while the world judges upon humane and peaceful principles I think adjusting to those criteria is the only (ONLY) way to find Peace and a consensus based justice ever.

60 years of violence and the only ones profiting from it are the 'tycoons', it doesn't make anybody ever just a tad bit suspicious?

Yes it is all ok but we still dont address the core of the problem, thus we remain on surface and try to dream away the personal miseries happened over 60 years...

Of course the sides are playing on the violence for their own gains, to remain in political power...however there is this tremendous hatred accummulated in israelis as palestinians alike toward each others, and one has more right to it than the other...

60 years was not enough for the generations to forget where they have came from, where they have lost all their property along with their dignity.

tsedek, you have to address the core problem here, how you see your forefathers who in name of the zionist movement really shamelessly declared that Palestine is a land without people and is awaiting the jews who are people without a land. It all has started with a lie! And the jews kept ignoring it that they are lieing to themselves, they taught lies to their children.

I guess nobody shall debate that in Palestine as the arabs so the jews have a historical place, they belong to that land.
But how everything went wrong when the jews wanted to claim it for themselves exclusively, is hard to correct anymore.

I have no idea what can be the solution, but at least if the israelis start seeing their past in its reality and not through a looking glass, thats already a big step forward.

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by tsedek

To be a Jewish state is nothing more than Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Syria, the Arab peninsula etc. being a Muslim state. Why are you so much against a tiny piece of land that -due to its basic principles which it cannot show because it is under 'war regulations'- wants to be a DEMOCRATIC Jewish land? Does 'Jewish Land" in any way exclude equal rights to non-Jews? And if you think so, why? Isn't Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Syria etc. etc. proclaiming to be for equal rights though those are Muslim states?

You want the whole of the Middle East to be like Lebanon (not claiming to be a Muslim state but a plurital one)? What is so good in Lebanon that makes you think someone would like to follow those ideals? From where I am it looks like your country is in constant internal war :(

The Zionist says that he cannot give back land that he stole because it will lead to civil unrest.

Brilliance, I must say. I wonder how long states founded on lies and theft last.

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by zeinelnour

Here is a link to a youtube clip on the israeli regime. I'd appreciate your comments and suggestions. some of you might be surprised of some of the things in there, others would just have another argument to use when debating with pro-israelis...

YouTube - Palestine: Shameless and Deluded (Never Before Campaign)

menachem begin said so? is there any verification to prove that? I don't and can't believe that without proof. "beasts on legs'. sell that to your brother (who would love to believe this) not to people unable to believe everything that's erroneously and out of context being fed to them.

also: why would anyone in their sane state of mind try to deny Yitzhak rabin's statement: Palestinians are NOT 'crushed like grasshoppers'? isn't that why all of you pretend to stand up for them? (and promote their deaths by firing them up all the time).

is crying seen as a form of weakness by 'you'? isn't crying for the loss of someone you love a sign of HUMANITY (the thing people try to misuse for claiming their cause when talking about violence against Israelis)?

you want 'hate'? try this one:

YouTube - Islam Hatred at the Moderate Mosque

(but of course you would find excuses to justify this hate)

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Salome

Yes it is all ok but we still dont address the core of the problem, thus we remain on surface and try to dream away the personal miseries happened over 60 years...

Of course the sides are playing on the violence for their own gains, to remain in political power...however there is this tremendous hatred accummulated in israelis as palestinians alike toward each others, and one has more right to it than the other...

60 years was not enough for the generations to forget where they have came from, where they have lost all their property along with their dignity.

tsedek, you have to address the core problem here, how you see your forefathers who in name of the zionist movement really shamelessly declared that Palestine is a land without people and is awaiting the jews who are people without a land. It all has started with a lie! And the jews kept ignoring it that they are lieing to themselves, they taught lies to their children.

I guess nobody shall debate that in Palestine as the arabs so the jews have a historical place, they belong to that land.
But how everything went wrong when the jews wanted to claim it for themselves exclusively, is hard to correct anymore.

I have no idea what can be the solution, but at least if the israelis start seeing their past in its reality and not through a looking glass, thats already a big step forward.

my dear, it doesn't matter if you're palestinian or israeli - if as a person you hold hate feelings in you, you are one of a specific group of people: the haters.

only non-haters can bring about peace. however they're outnumbered because people tend to listen to what they're being told rather than to their own feelings of how they feel towards other human beings.

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by tsedek

my dear, it doesn't matter if you're palestinian or israeli - if as a person you hold hate feelings in you, you are one of a specific group of people: the haters.

only non-haters can bring about peace. however they're outnumbered because people tend to listen to what they're being told rather than to their own feelings of how they feel towards other human beings.

The Zionist, whose ideology is built upon subjugation and racism, is asking us to be compassionate for our fellow man.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by tsedek

my dear, it doesn't matter if you're palestinian or israeli - if as a person you hold hate feelings in you, you are one of a specific group of people: the haters.

only non-haters can bring about peace. however they're outnumbered because people tend to listen to what they're being told rather than to their own feelings of how they feel towards other human beings.

tsedek, you are talking in a different dimension than my question was. Of course hatred is poisonous on both sides, but can we please go back and I would appreciate if you address my question?
No superficial cosmetics will solve here the problem.