Shameless

[Salome]

Originally Posted by tsedek

Perhaps when 'you' stop talking about 'us' in a similar way 'we' can stop talking about 'you' in that way as well.

Deal?

hey tsedek, good to see you back:)

Well it is not going like that.

First we have to choose a reasonable time to go back in history, or else we can keep on going with the blame game till the first homo sapiens appeared.

So I think it is reasonable to go back to the early 20th century as the starting point of the conflict. By then the hard core idea of zionism was born, and by then ever more jews started to immigrate to Palestine.

Now main problem started during the Nazi regime, and after 1945, when the immigrations turned into a mass exodus from the various European countries.

Now first guilt is the spread of the false theory of land without people about Palestine. This served as justification for the mass exodus.

When the second wave of settlers arrived after 1948 they literally walked into the empty houses left behind the arabs. Second guilt is the spreading of the lie that these houses were abandoned by the Palestinians fleeing the Israeli army, and nothing was mentioned for decades about how actually they were forced out of their houses with weapons, or being shot down as the other alternative for not cooperating.

Think into this situation and you will realize why that hatred and anger accummulated all during the past 60 years in the Palestinians...they just wanted their OWN houses back, and now they want their grandparents' house back.

And meanwhile Israel has settled in to all those "abandoned" houses and territories, and kept living in a lie, telling lies to their children, and built their lives on the ruins and blood of others, on the expense of others.

I am sure this is not what the holocaust has taught them.

And now at this point the situation is all too desperate, too much hatred accummulated on both sides, the vicious circle of violence will just not stop.

The international community is advocating for a two state solution, which denies the right of return for most of the Palestinians.
The one state solution would de facto mean the end of Israel.

So how do you suggest to solve this eternal problem?

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by Salome

hey tsedek, good to see you back:)

Well it is not going like that.

First we have to choose a reasonable time to go back in history, or else we can keep on going with the blame game till the first homo sapiens appeared.

So I think it is reasonable to go back to the early 20th century as the starting point of the conflict. By then the hard core idea of zionism was born, and by then ever more jews started to immigrate to Palestine.

Now main problem started during the Nazi regime, and after 1945, when the immigrations turned into a mass exodus from the various European countries.

Now first guilt is the spread of the false theory of land without people about Palestine. This served as justification for the mass exodus.

When the second wave of settlers arrived after 1948 they literally walked into the empty houses left behind the arabs. Second guilt is the spreading of the lie that these houses were abandoned by the Palestinians fleeing the Israeli army, and nothing was mentioned for decades about how actually they were forced out of their houses with weapons, or being shot down as the other alternative for not cooperating.

Think into this situation and you will realize why that hatred and anger accummulated all during the past 60 years in the Palestinians...they just wanted their OWN houses back, and now they want their grandparents' house back.

And meanwhile Israel has settled in to all those "abandoned" houses and territories, and kept living in a lie, telling lies to their children, and built their lives on the ruins and blood of others, on the expense of others.

I am sure this is not what the holocaust has taught them.

And now at this point the situation is all too desperate, too much hatred accummulated on both sides, the vicious circle of violence will just not stop.

The international community is advocating for a two state solution, which denies the right of return for most of the Palestinians.
The one state solution would de facto mean the end of Israel.

So how do you suggest to solve this eternal problem?

Until the rightful owners of the land and houses return to their homeland, War is the only answer.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Saladin

Until the rightful owners of the land and houses return to their homeland, War is the only answer.

Well then this is a promise for an eternal war, leaving the whole region is misery.

By now it seems on both sides they prefer war.

[J. Abizeid]

Originally Posted by Salome

So how do you suggest to solve this eternal problem?

History proves nations founded on race and religion cannot survive without external life support regardless of their power and wealth. Entities such as Israel and Saudi Arabia owe their present existence to the US but the US Empire reached its peak and started its long term decline. It’s a matter of time before its satellites start extinguishing. In other words, time and evolution will heal injustices. South Africa is a perfect example for those willing to learn the universal laws of nature. It is apparent many radicals in Israel understand the real threat does not come from a nuclear bomb from Iran because that will make them even stronger and renews their resolve and the world sympathy towards them but time itself.
Many aren’t aware of the fact that earth and the moon are equally bombarded by space meteors causing the same amount of craters. Those craters stay intact on the moon because it has no life or climate but earth does therefore it heals itself so does humanity.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by J. Abizeid

History proves nations founded on race and religion cannot survive without external life support regardless of their power and wealth. Entities such as Israel and Saudi Arabia owe their present existence to the US but the US Empire reached its peak and started its long term decline. It’s a matter of time before its satellites start extinguishing. In other words, time and evolution will heal injustices. South Africa is a perfect example for those willing to learn the universal laws of nature. It is apparent many radicals in Israel understand the real threat does not come from a nuclear bomb from Iran because that will make them even stronger and renews their resolve and the world sympathy towards them but time itself.
Many aren’t aware of the fact that earth and the moon are equally bombarded by space meteors causing the same amount of craters. Those craters stay intact on the moon because it has no life or climate but earth does therefore it heals itself so does humanity.

Do you suggest hands off and leaving them all bleeding away by themselves?

And what is the time span? 50, 100 or 200 years?

Or one of them has to die so that the other lives?

And they can not live both at the same time? At least they shall try, this is the real challange. To die is easy, and anytime.

[J. Abizeid]

Originally Posted by Salome

Do you suggest hands off and leaving them all bleeding away by themselves?

And what is the time span? 50, 100 or 200 years?

Or one of them has to die so that the other lives?

And they can not live both at the same time? At least they shall try, this is the real challange. To die is easy, and anytime.

I don’t want to drift way off topic but here is my view.

The only way for Israel to survive as a Zionist entity would be to simulate the Vatican; the Vatican is a Christian entity surrounded by “Christian” nations and, not posing any threat to them.
I can’t visualize Israel surrounded by Jewish nations any time soon…
Israel has two options:
1- Becoming full democracy which means losing its identity as a Zionist state.
2- Wait until the Arabs inside its territory become majority. (Estimates less than 50 years). At that time they’ll take over with vengeance.
The second option is a bad one for everyone because once the dam breaks too many innocent casualties become victims and the pendulum swings to the other extreme.
What I’m suggesting here is that the radicals are never the best friends for their own cause.

[zeinelnour]

Originally Posted by tsedek

Melon? Why? I'd rather be a strawberry :(

Anywayz, why do you think I think of Arabs as backwards? Don't try to push me into a corner I am not belonging in. I respond to "Arabs' even-leveled because the only ones who think of Arabs being 'backwards' are those organizations who many Arabs take advantage of and are claiming the rest of the world are doing wrong against those very same 'Arabs'.

If you confront me I see a person in the eye (same height) and in no way do I underestimate 'your' level.

OK strawberry, so you believe in equality now, do you?

Then you must oppose the racist nature of the Israeli regime that discriminates according to religion. And that basically you support equal rights for citizens of Israel: Jews, Muslims and Christians alike.

If that is so, then I will accept your claim of being a humanist and I would ask you what are you doing about it.

[zeinelnour]

Today I stand up for Justice!!



___

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by zeinelnour

OK strawberry, so you believe in equality now, do you?

Then you must oppose the racist nature of the Israeli regime that discriminates according to religion. And that basically you support equal rights for citizens of Israel: Jews, Muslims and Christians alike.

If that is so, then I will accept your claim of being a humanist and I would ask you what are you doing about it.

To be a Jewish state is nothing more than Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Syria, the Arab peninsula etc. being a Muslim state. Why are you so much against a tiny piece of land that -due to its basic principles which it cannot show because it is under 'war regulations'- wants to be a DEMOCRATIC Jewish land? Does 'Jewish Land" in any way exclude equal rights to non-Jews? And if you think so, why? Isn't Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Syria etc. etc. proclaiming to be for equal rights though those are Muslim states?

You want the whole of the Middle East to be like Lebanon (not claiming to be a Muslim state but a plurital one)? What is so good in Lebanon that makes you think someone would like to follow those ideals? From where I am it looks like your country is in constant internal war :(

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Salome

.......
So how do you suggest to solve this eternal problem?

well, let's take this a step further down. let's break it down into small pieces and see:

when people stop blaming (a weak brew of attacking) 'the other' and be completely absorbed into telling their own misfortune... it helps. no attacks, verbal or physical, are 'helping' one's misfortune to change: on the contrary... it keeps politicians, weapon dealers, multinationals etc. etc. growing stronger and 'us' suffering. So:

though it may take Y-E-A-R-S and probably more, I think not playing the 'proud' card and not being misled into thinking that honesty means humiliation- keep on telling the hardships is a far stronger 'weapon' a 'democratic' (and 'humane') world can deal with.

violence didn't get the Palestinians anywhere (it got nobody anywhere to be precise) so while the world judges upon humane and peaceful principles I think adjusting to those criteria is the only (ONLY) way to find Peace and a consensus based justice ever.

60 years of violence and the only ones profiting from it are the 'tycoons', it doesn't make anybody ever just a tad bit suspicious?