Pro-Israeli Lobby - Articles and Discussion

[DL]

Originally Posted by Free_Patriot

True. That is why there is a debate here about the issue. The article is very interesting and well supported but it’s still hard to say. The article talks about how the Jewish lobby is preventing peace in the middle east and encouraging hostilities against Iran and Syria under the conclusion that the current situation if Israel and Iraq is not good. I don’t personally think it’s true, in fact, the American invasion of Iraq went very well and those who wanted to make money out of it succeeded.
I don’t want to sound naïve but just simply logically speaking: if the economy is controlled by the Jews, and the government is filling the corporations pockets with lots of money through their policies in the middle east (such as the invasion of Iraq); therefore, the government is doing the best interest of the economy because it is also the best interest of the Jews. Here, the huge financial support for Israel becomes a by-product (or an investment?)

My friend, your equation would work well if we neglect one of the basic elements of economics: the wellfare of the masses. What is happening these days is that yes, the lobby is controlling the economy and filling its pockets and the pockets of those who follow it with stach of cash by following wrong policies (invasion of Iraq, continuing the spread of arms, etc.) - But this ddefines the beneficiary only. Who is loosing out? The masses in the US (look at the new bills for education and health reformation) and masses elsewhere in the world (Iraqis, Palestinians, Cubans, etc.) - Another big looser is the US ability to keep its competitive advantage from an economic point of view when its foreign policy is completely skewed and looks in one direction with no regard to others... This is again the basic ideology of the Zionist lobby and Israel: gaining the most from a place / person until they are of no use any longer then move on to others..

Can you see the trend in the 20th century? Russia / Germany / UK, then moving to US after the earlier mentioned empires were destroyed- What is next? China and the new EU! (but can it be done?)

[Free_Patriot]

Originally Posted by Lebanese_N_Proud

As for the second part of your post, I'm not sure I quite understand your question.

Sorry it wasn't a question, it was a simplistic reasoning to say that yes the best interest of Corporate America are being served along the best interest of the Jews because they are not separable.

However I can say this, to judge the American invasion as successful is too simplistic. The Iraqi situation which the US got itself into is atleast two-fold and not only economic. The US is currently the most indebted country in the world. While the corporations have attained their desired riches, and a new Iraq can be a gold mine for the economy of the US, it has ended up backfiring. The result is increased extremism, which results in more financial support for Israel and an easier job for Jewish lobbyists. So in that sense this financial aid becomes a by-product ( ie increased future investment ) which are both a result of the Iraq invasion. Hope that makes sense.

As far as I understand, the situation in Iraq is problematic to the US administration only because the administration is failing to sell it to the American public. The US is willing to stay in Iraq as long as it takes regardless of the "collateral damage" (That's what makes the American policies dangerous to the ordinary residents of the region). Until this point of time Iraq is still a gold mine, only a gold mine where poor minors are getting killed everyday under the tough labour conditions, but isn't that how tradional capitalism works?

Originally Posted by Dutch Lebanese

My friend, your equation would work well if we neglect one of the basic elements of economics: the wellfare of the masses. What is happening these days is that yes, the lobby is controlling the economy and filling its pockets and the pockets of those who follow it with stach of cash by following wrong policies (invasion of Iraq, continuing the spread of arms, etc.) - But this ddefines the beneficiary only. Who is loosing out? The masses in the US (look at the new bills for education and health reformation) and masses elsewhere in the world (Iraqis, Palestinians, Cubans, etc.) - Another big looser is the US ability to keep its competitive advantage from an economic point of view when its foreign policy is completely skewed and looks in one direction with no regard to others... This is again the basic ideology of the Zionist lobby and Israel: gaining the most from a place / person until they are of no use any longer then move on to others..

Can you see the trend in the 20th century? Russia / Germany / UK, then moving to US after the earlier mentioned empires were destroyed- What is next? China and the new EU! (but can it be done?)

The way I understand it is the basic elements of economics are the welfare of the masses because the masses spend their money into the economy. But there is so much greed in the way the corporative minds function, which puts the economic investment in an obvious contradiction with itself. How does it work for the welfare of the masses when GM fires all the masses from its closing manufacturing plants? Who is going to buy the cars when people have no jobs? I don’t think the welfare of the masses really matters to the US administration when it designs its policies in the region. But, fortunately, the American politics still operate on the basic elements of a democracy, that’s why the US administration have a problem when the Bush public support drops to a record low. The American public will pull the plug on the US involvement in Iraq if the administration continues to fail to sell this involvement to the public and that’s going to be the big problem to corporate America, not the casualties or the Iraqi civil war.
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Now comes the analogy with the Jewish control of the American administration. When would the administration feel the need to sell its support to Israel to the American public that knows little about the issue? The trend now is the so-called cultural ties with Israel are getting stronger to an extent that the American public will probably not need the promotion of the support for Israel. But in either cases, the support of Israel is done regardless of the welfare of the masses because I am sure the masses would like to keep their tax dollars sent to Israel.

What you talked about in your post is actually the basic elements of capitalism. Zionism knew how to take advantage of capitalism. Afterall, the entire Jewish way of life is based on ethnic favouritism and getting enriched by the majority without giving back to the majority, which works perfectly well with capitalism, i.e., serving the best interest of a small group or minority or organization regardless of the welfare of the masses.

[DL]

Originally Posted by Free_Patriot

The way I understand it is the basic elements of economics are the welfare of the masses because the masses spend their money into the economy. But there is so much greed in the way the corporative minds function, which puts the economic investment in an obvious contradiction with itself. How does it work for the welfare of the masses when GM fires all the masses from its closing manufacturing plants? Who is going to buy the cars when people have no jobs? I don’t think the welfare of the masses really matters to the US administration when it designs its policies in the region. But, fortunately, the American politics still operate on the basic elements of a democracy, that’s why the US administration have a problem when the Bush public support drops to a record low. The American public will pull the plug on the US involvement in Iraq if the administration continues to fail to sell this involvement to the public and that’s going to be the big problem to corporate America, not the casualties or the Iraqi civil war.
<o:p></o:p>
Now comes the analogy with the Jewish control of the American administration. When would the administration feel the need to sell its support to Israel to the American public that knows little about the issue? The trend now is the so-called cultural ties with Israel are getting stronger to an extent that the American public will probably not need the promotion of the support for Israel. But in either cases, the support of Israel is done regardless of the welfare of the masses because I am sure the masses would like to keep their tax dollars sent to Israel.

What you talked about in your post is actually the basic elements of capitalism. Zionism knew how to take advantage of capitalism. Afterall, the entire Jewish way of life is based on ethnic favouritism and getting enriched by the majority without giving back to the majority, which works perfectly well with capitalism, i.e., serving the best interest of a small group or minority or organization regardless of the welfare of the masses.

My friend, first allow me to thank you for the quality posts. Full respect!

I agree with most of what you have written but allow me to disagree on 2 points - 1) Welfare of the masses and 2) Capitalism

1. Welfare of the masses: The only problem is that the greed that this adminstration (and its backing lobby) has been promoting, has managed to "hoard money" i.e. to suffocate the economy while tending to polarize incomes. The welfare equation upon which the poor rely has been totally skewed. The reference you make to GM laying off people is correct but it is only a manifestation of the problem not its root. The root is that the US is pumping dollars while selling its assets to the Chinese / Japanese and then transfering these dollars to support its mission to play the policeman of the world. All this at the expense of the poor masses (look at the new proposed bills for education and health where billions are being cut). Eventually, the snake will bite its own tail and the poor masses will wake up to a gigantic budget deficit (read: debt) and then the democracy will be in action. These days, it is still not in full swing because the elite is still managing to control the masses with many things to keep them busy from politics, policy formation and the harsh reality of the bad state of finances in the US!

2. Capitalism: the way I understand it is the Smith model of Laissez faire - Laissez passer that will always lead to equilibrium in all markets. However, the Zionist view is one that prevents equilibrium from happening through mass accumulation of assets without leeway into any market but "artificial" ones like the exchange market and securities excahnges. They will suck whatever comes their way without allowing the loop of money to close.. That eventually brings societies and economies to halt.. Remember Germany's hyperinflation?!

Again, many thanks for insightful posts..

Cheers,
DL

[Free_Patriot]

Originally Posted by Dutch Lebanese

My friend, first allow me to thank you for the quality posts. Full respect!

Thank you. It is the contribution of all members of this thread that makes it interesting :lfpm.org:

I agree with most of what you have written but allow me to disagree on 2 points - 1) Welfare of the masses and 2) Capitalism

1. Welfare of the masses: The only problem is that the greed that this adminstration (and its backing lobby) has been promoting, has managed to "hoard money" i.e. to suffocate the economy while tending to polarize incomes. The welfare equation upon which the poor rely has been totally skewed. The reference you make to GM laying off people is correct but it is only a manifestation of the problem not its root. The root is that the US is pumping dollars while selling its assets to the Chinese / Japanese and then transfering these dollars to support its mission to play the policeman of the world. All this at the expense of the poor masses (look at the new proposed bills for education and health where billions are being cut). Eventually, the snake will bite its own tail and the poor masses will wake up to a gigantic budget deficit (read: debt) and then the democracy will be in action. These days, it is still not in full swing because the elite is still managing to control the masses with many things to keep them busy from politics, policy formation and the harsh reality of the bad state of finances in the US!

So I understand that you also believe that democracy will be in action but you disagree with me on when?? Otherwise I agree with what you said. You're looking at things from a better perspective than mine.

2. Capitalism: the way I understand it is the Smith model of Laissez faire - Laissez passer that will always lead to equilibrium in all markets. However, the Zionist view is one that prevents equilibrium from happening through mass accumulation of assets without leeway into any market but "artificial" ones like the exchange market and securities excahnges. They will suck whatever comes their way without allowing the loop of money to close.. That eventually brings societies and economies to halt.. Remember Germany's hyperinflation?!

Again, many thanks for insightful posts..

Cheers,
DL

I am not sure why you limit yourself to Adam Smith. Why not take other theories into account especially those who came chronologically after Smith such Marx and others? Marx often criticized Smith and presented another extreme where capitalism has a lot of contradictions in itself which would eventually bring it to a collapse. This view would be in better accordance with the description you gave for the role of Zionism.

Thanks

[DL]

Originally Posted by Free_Patriot

So I understand that you also believe that democracy will be in action but you disagree with me when??

I am not sure why you limit yourself to Adam Smith. Why not take other theories into account especially those who came chronologically after Smith such Marx and others? Marx often criticized Smith and presented another extreme where capitalism has a lot of contradictions in itself which would eventually bring it to a collapse. This view would be in better accordance with the description you gave for the role of Zionism.

1. Yes - Correct. I think timing is crucial and for the time being democracy is not in full swing yet.

2. Sorry, I did not want to seem like giving a lecture in economics so I limited myself to Adam Smith but I agree with you, lots of thought has went into the issue of Capitalism and markets that will tend to marry the Zionist principles in an extreme view. What I wanted to say is that Academics have warned from the extreme view of greed and hoarding that will kill economies and nations, however, the only practical example we have is the Zionist one that has managed to bring empires to its knees and then move to others to do the same...

I think we are both singing from the same sheet!

Cheers,
DL

[erzallubnan]

Everyone has different versions of explanation, some people think Israel is another American state some think the opposite, but its worth wondering why the hell is the US so biased towards the Apartheid state of Israel? All UN resolutions are vetoed by the USA, all the top of the line weopon support to Israel, going to war for the sake of protecting and securing Israel.

I think this article might shed some light

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8730

[Najabre]

Council For The National Interest Foundation
3-20-6



Two professors from Harvard University and the University of Chicago have just released an 81-page study on "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" that concludes that the "overall thrust of U.S. policy in the [Middle East] is due almost entirely to U.S. domestic politics, and especially to the activities of the 'Israel Lobby.'"



The study is currently available as a Harvard "working paper" with extensive footnotes or as a shorter version published in the London Review of Books.



The authors systematically examine the facts of the U.S.-Israel relationship, concluding that Israel is neither a strategic asset nor a "compelling moral case for sustained U.S. backing," and point a finger squarely at the Israel lobby for "[managing] to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."



The authors examine the entire scope of the Israel lobby's efforts, from its intimidation of the press, think tanks and academia into presenting a misleading image of Israel to its success at co-opting the Congress and the Executive Branch into implementing Israel's policy aims.



The paper is significant not just for its substance but also for the fact that it was published at all. The authors note in their section on the lobby's intimidation of the press: "Newspapers occasionally publish guest op-eds challenging Israeli policy, but the balance of opinion clearly favours the other side. It is hard to imagine any mainstream media outlet in the United States publishing a piece like this one."



Stephen Walt is Academic Dean and Professor of International Affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. His latest book is "Taming American Power: The Global Response to U.S. Primacy" (W. W. Norton & Co., 2005). According to his faculty website, he has previously worked at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and as a Guest Scholar at the Brookings Institution, in addition to consulting for the Institute of Defense Analyses, the Center for Naval Analyses, and the National Defense University.



John Mearsheimer is a Professor of Political Science and the co-director of the Program on International Security Policy at the University of Chicago, where he is an authority on security affairs and international politics. He graduated from West Point in 1970 and served five years as an officer in the U.S. Air Force.



Both authors previously wrote "An Unnecessary War," which argued against invading Iraq, in the January/February 2003 edition of Foreign Policy magazine.





Council for the National Interest Foundation

1250 4th Street SW, Suite WG-1

Washington, District of Columbia 20024

http://www.cnionline.org/

http://www.rescuemideastpolicy.com/

Phone 202-863-2951

Fax 202-863-2952

[Motorcity]

Originally Posted by Motorcity
Any seroius critcism or questioning of Israel by any American politcian is a career suicide!!

There are other growing elements in this support, mainly on the Religion side, by Southern Evangelican groups, who look at israel from a Byblical point of view. Their effect is strong but still young!!!

In the news today, Stephen Walt, one of the two professors who wrote the paper on the Israeli lobby, was forced to quit his job as the Academic Dean and Professor of International Affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University!!!

[Haruun]

Originally Posted by Motorcity

In the news today, Stephen Walt, one of the two professors who wrote the paper on the Israeli lobby, was forced to quit his job as the Academic Dean and Professor of International Affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University!!!

Are you serious? What was the reason (we all know the real and underlying reason) that the universtiy gave him?

[Lebanese_N_Proud]

Originally Posted by Motorcity

In the news today, Stephen Walt, one of the two professors who wrote the paper on the Israeli lobby, was forced to quit his job as the Academic Dean and Professor of International Affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University!!!

Source please?

Regards,