One more Jenin Massacre lie.

[Frisbeetarian]

With all due respect to French Revolution (which leveled Bastille and quickly failed without bringing much of human rights. If you wish to use similar marker American Revolution predates French one by 17 years and was much more successful) I see no relevance of it to the subject at hand. However, I appreciate your attempt to bring some sense into out discussion.

Ouuuh, my friend i suggest you pepper your knowledge on that era and on the importance of the French Revolution and its impact in the constitution of monarchless nations by reading some history, "The Story Of Civilization: Rousseau and Revolution" is a good start and good book to read if u want to know the events that preceded and lead to the revolution, also look up Baruch Spinoza and his contribution in shaping modern thought derived through the revolution, also look up some Hegel on your way there and how he places so much value on the revolution as to proclaim it the conclusion of history. Its a very broad subject to delve into and you clearly lack alot of info about it.

I would like to offer an alternative idea. How about as long as people remember who they and are willing to take back what was once taken away from them?

Alright, lets go that way. According to wiki Israel is now actually taking part of our ancestral Phoenician lands, hand them back please? See what i mean by idiotic.

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Zayn

Where am I being subjective here? What is Zionism? It is the establishment of a JEWISH state. This means that it cannot be majority Arab. Jews established their state in a land that is Arab, which means the Arabs had to go. Hence the Nakba. Your expansionist policies are occurring to this day as you attempt to ethnically cleanse Jerusalem and the West Bank with your terrorist policies against the Palestinian people. Hello? Avigdor Lieberman? Do I need to really lay down all the obvious facts to you or are you so brainwashed by your military establishment that you've learned to ignore facts in the face of propaganda and racist platitudes?




Here's a source that cites Amnesty International's claims that the Zionists did perpetrate a massacre against the citizens of Jenin:

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Jenin 'massacre evidence growing'

Of course, you believe the reports of your terrorist military, who has a great incentive to cover up the terror it perpetrates as well as Colin "Iraq WMD" Powell who lied through his teeth to the UN Security Council about Iraq's so-called weapons of mass destruction and later about the massacre you Zionists perpetrated in Jenin.

Also notice how you Zionists choose to focus on Jenin whilst ignoring the numerous other massacres you racists and bigots perpetrated upon the Palestinians in Gaza and Lebanon. As if the supposed lack of evidence (according to your military) somehow vindicates the Israeli military from all wrongdoing-- and that this vindication extends for the thousands of other massacres and crimes you've committed against the people who are indigenous to the land that you bigots have usurped.

You copy a source right after the fighting stopped. Here is what the U.N. had to say about that (also a certain Professor "Derrick Pounder" from your source Amnesty later did have to admit there was no massacre taking place in Jenin)

"The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55. Of those, a number were civilians, four were women and two children. There were 23 Israeli fatalities in the fighting operations in Jenin."

Report of the Secretary-General on Jenin

That's what you get when you get into the "Capital of Terrorism" as Jenin was known for not only in Israel but proudly in the neighboring countries as well and not bomb the hell out of it while saving 'own lives' out of concern for other peoples lives. You start to make up myths about the opposite. Well, tough going: a myth stays a myth, no matter how hard someone would like to believe it.

About Zionism: NO. It had no ethnic cleansing 'ideologies' - all what you mention is added later on when it was shown that mass immigration was met by violence and unacceptance.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Zayn

You are either insane or stupid. Pick one.

First and foremost, the people living in Arab countries like Egypt and Iraq consider themselves Arabs. Do I need to bring up 'Abd al-Nasser, the most revered Arab leader in history?

Secondly, you say that the "Arabs of Judea" are not indigenous to their own land? Even if we were to disregard the name "Arab" completely and refer to these people as Philistines or Canaanites, as an idiot of your caliber would, this does not change the fact that these people were kicked out of their historical homeland to make way for a JEWISH state comprised of people from European countries. In your attempts to de-legitimize the rightful ownership of indigenous peoples over their land, you de-legitimize the establish of Israel itself. Europeans are not indigenous to Asia, and are obviously not indigenous to Palestine.

I must say, it's hard to say idiotic things with a straight face, at least for me. I guess that means idiocy is intrinsic to your character.

I see not reason for you to worry.
First, you are legal US resident, maybe even citizen. You have as many Rights as any other American has regardless of your origin and nobody has right to kick you out of US.
Second, if I am as stupid and as idiotic as you are saying who is going to listen to and believe me. You can join your friend Libnene Qu7 and you can laugh at me together.

As to "de-legitimize the rightful ownership of indigenous peoples [Arabs] over their land [of Palestine]".
There is nothing to de-legitimize. Arabs squatting on Jewish land was never legal to begin with. Obviously, being as smart as you are, you already figured out that "rightful ownership" and "indigenous" do not apply to Arabs of Judea, Samaria and Gaza for very same reason. If you wish to claim your right of ownership to any land you are in the wrong place. Try moving South/South-East.

Originally Posted by Zayn

You still haven't not elaborated on how the Arabs of Palestine are not indigenous to their land, or how their national character corresponds to occupation.

We're waiting. You're failing. This is nothing new. Of course, being that you're a racist, backwards bigot with nothing better to do than support unsupportable causes, I expect to read more racist platitudes from you.

Proceed, bigot.

I feel you are under mistaken impression that I owe you something. Wake up.
It is not my goal to convince you that Arabs are occupiers of entire Middle East. You will never admit to it even if you agree.
I am simply passing factual information. Do with it whatever you like.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

Ouuuh, my friend i suggest you pepper your knowledge on that era and on the importance of the French Revolution and its impact in the constitution of monarchless nations by reading some history, "The Story Of Civilization: Rousseau and Revolution" is a good start and good book to read if u want to know the events that preceded and lead to the revolution, also look up Baruch Spinoza and his contribution in shaping modern thought derived through the revolution, also look up some Hegel on your way there and how he places so much value on the revolution as to proclaim it the conclusion of history. Its a very broad subject to delve into and you clearly lack alot of info about it.

Historical facts:

1. American Revolution predates French Revolution by 17 years.
2. American Revolution led to democracy while French Revolution fall back to monarchy.

My only point was to suggest that if you wish to use some kind of Revolution as time mark American one is much more suitable than French. I have no desire to waste my time discussing whose Revolution is "revolution-er". If you want French one, you got it. Has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

Alright, lets go that way. According to wiki Israel is now actually taking part of our ancestral Phoenician lands, hand them back please? See what i mean by idiotic.

With all my unquestioned trust in Wikipedia I must never the less inject dose of reality into your way of thinking.
Have I ever said it will be easy?
Have I ever said it will be delivered to you on silver platter?
Do you see Arabs voluntarily leaving ME and moving back to Peninsula? No? So, why do you think Jews will move elsewhere?
(and you say I am the idiot)

I am afraid you will have to fight for it. And pay very heavy price for it too.
Start anywhere you like, clearing Israel of Jews or clearing Phoenicia of Arabs or both at the same time if you wish.

[Frisbeetarian]

Historical facts:

1. American Revolution predates French Revolution by 17 years.
2. American Revolution led to democracy while French Revolution fall back to monarchy.

You dont seem to fathom the humongous difference between the two revolutions. The French's purposed aim was the collapse of an entire political system and the institution of new values that would serve the people behind it better. It had the driving force of an entire nation that was resolute on bringing SOCIAL change with the revolution. While the American was a revolution of liberation against master. It had no values to instill and no social movement behind it (unlike the french's L'Encyclopedistes), its main purpose was to liberate the states and found the independent united states of america. One cannot even remotely compare the two as they on different wave lengths.

My only point was to suggest that if you wish to use some kind of Revolution as time mark American one is much more suitable than French. I have no desire to waste my time discussing whose Revolution is "revolution-er". If you want French one, you got it. Has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

But that was my proposition , to instill reference point from the French Revolution. Now i understand your opinion on wanting to take the american one as reference and i can surely debate you on that point, but i dont understand why you took the time to reply if you deem it off topic to begin with .

Have I ever said it will be easy?
Have I ever said it will be delivered to you on silver platter?

But according to this

I would like to offer an alternative idea. How about as long as people remember who they and are willing to take back what was once taken away from them?

We have a right to these lands. Or does this rule apply only to your people?

Do you see Arabs voluntarily leaving ME and moving back to Peninsula? No? So, why do you think Jews will move elsewhere?

I dont, i never wished for the Jews to leave, for they have always been part of this region and its inhabitants. But there is a big difference between accepting Jews and accepting a nation that has forcibly instilled its presence amidst our midst and has been nothing but a driver of destruction and dissolution of our people. It is sadly invoking and cultivating a culture of hate towards Jews in the heart of every Arab, a culture that was quite foreign before this vile mercenary state came to being.

Just like i dont expect Jews to leave, dont expect Arabs to leave also.

(and you say I am the idiot)

I never said you were an idiot, i said your argument was idiotic.

I am afraid you will have to fight for it. And pay very heavy price for it too.

Have we shown otherwise?

Start anywhere you like, clearing Israel of Jews or clearing Phoenicia of Arabs or both at the same time if you wish.

I hope one day we can be rid of this vile mercenary you call a state and establish a home where we can both live in peace and dignity, without anyone infringing upon the other. But that seems far fetched seeing your nations immaculate disregard to life towarsd these horned demons inside Gaza.

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

I see not reason for you to worry.
First, you are legal US resident, maybe even citizen. You have as many Rights as any other American has regardless of your origin and nobody has right to kick you out of US.
Second, if I am as stupid and as idiotic as you are saying who is going to listen to and believe me. You can join your friend Libnene Qu7 and you can laugh at me together.

Everybody laughs at you, not just the two of us.

As to "de-legitimize the rightful ownership of indigenous peoples [Arabs] over their land [of Palestine]".
There is nothing to de-legitimize. Arabs squatting on Jewish land was never legal to begin with. Obviously, being as smart as you are, you already figured out that "rightful ownership" and "indigenous" do not apply to Arabs of Judea, Samaria and Gaza for very same reason. If you wish to claim your right of ownership to any land you are in the wrong place. Try moving South/South-East.

Your logic:

The "Arabs of Judea" are not indigenous to the land because they are not indigenous to their land.

This is not logic. This is stupidity.

I feel you are under mistaken impression that I owe you something. Wake up.
It is not my goal to convince you that Arabs are occupiers of entire Middle East. You will never admit to it even if you agree.
I am simply passing factual information. Do with it whatever you like.

You aren't posting any information, actually. You're posting your own twisted justifications for murder, theft, and occupation--all with no sources, links, or even a logical analysis.

Good day.

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by tsedek

You copy a source right after the fighting stopped. Here is what the U.N. had to say about that (also a certain Professor "Derrick Pounder" from your source Amnesty later did have to admit there was no massacre taking place in Jenin)

I apologize for posting a source that occurred right after the fighting stopped. Surely, I should have waited for your military to manipulate reports as it did in Gaza or for the United States veto in the security council (paid for by Zionist donors) that whitewashes your involvement in the Jenin massacre.

I did a Google search for "Derrick Pounder, jenin" I found nothing saying that he admitted that there was no Jenin massacre. I did find this, though:

"Prof Derrick Pounder, who is part of an Amnesty International team granted access to Jenin, said he has seen bodies lying in the streets and received eyewitness accounts of civilian deaths...

He said: 'The truth will come out, as it has come out in Bosnia and Kosovo, as it has in other places where we've had these kinds of allegations.

'I must say that the evidence before us at the moment doesn't lead us to believe that the allegations are anything other than truthful and that therefore there are large numbers of civilian dead underneath these bulldozed and bombed ruins that we see.'

The professor said recovering the bodies would be difficult because many buildings collapsed during bombardment.

He said: 'We know there are families who were there and killed and buried.

'We were on the ruins yesterday and two elderly men came forward, each of them pointed to where their houses had been and one of them told us that 10 members of his family were buried under the rubble."

Of course, according to you, this man went back on everything he said and admitted that Israel is the most moral army on the planet that doesn't bomb, occupy, murder, and steal from others.

"The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55. Of those, a number were civilians, four were women and two children. There were 23 Israeli fatalities in the fighting operations in Jenin."

Report of the Secretary-General on Jenin

Taken from your link:

"The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information, including submissions from five United Nations Member States and Observer Missions, documents in the public domain and papers submitted by non-governmental organizations. The Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs wrote to the Permanent Representative of Israel and the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations requesting them to submit information but only the latter did so. In the absence of a response from Israel, the United Nations has relied on public statements of Israeli officials and publicly available documents of the Government of Israel relevant to the request in resolution ES-10/10. "

Ah yes, a very thorough report conducted by people who never visited Jenin and relied on the sources of "member states" (Israeli military) for data. Really? This vindicates you? Go shoot yourself, racist.

That's what you get when you get into the "Capital of Terrorism" as Jenin was known for not only in Israel but proudly in the neighboring countries as well and not bomb the hell out of it while saving 'own lives' out of concern for other peoples lives. You start to make up myths about the opposite. Well, tough going: a myth stays a myth, no matter how hard someone would like to believe it.

No, this is what you get for resisting occupation in the face of an ideologically racist occupier who wants to usurp the land that you are on. The capital of terrorism is in Tel Aviv. You Zionists will never acknowledge the facts, for raw data does nothing but hurt you and you try your hardest to cover it up or buy the silence and praise of governments worldwide. Tell me, moral Zionist, why is it that the Zionist lobby has to spend so much time, effort, and cash in buying the interests of US lobbyists? It's because you have no moral, legal, or historical claim over Palestine nor do you have a case for your continued occupation of Palestinian land.

About Zionism: NO. It had no ethnic cleansing 'ideologies' - all what you mention is added later on when it was shown that mass immigration was met by violence and unacceptance.

No ethnic cleansing? So what was al-Nakba all about? Why don't the moral, generous Israelis allow the owners of the land whose land was stolen by colonist Jews to return? Why does a Jewish majority matter in a land that is not Jewish? Why do you build walls, destroy Palestinian homes in Jerusalem, and build settlements upon the West Bank whilst expelling Palestinians? Why are Israeli Arabs met with high levels of discrimination in your society? Even your own leaders admit that Palestine was ethnically cleansed to make way for Jews. Zionism is racism, fool. Everybody knows this, and even Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have said your policies mirror apartheid.

However, this is all malarkey, right? Pshaw, how do you reason with brainwashed bigots? Tough question.

[TripolySunni]

Tsedek Just Made a Claim that Zionism Was Not Racist.... :D

Maybe even The Europeans and Nazis who kicked them out of thier Lands weren't Racists and had no ethnic cleansing Ideologies as well. When a person is being treated in a Horrible manner by Racists in Europe then Kicked out of His Continent to another land, Do you not expect him to treat the people of that Land with the Same Racism embedded into his Character by previous life experiences? Specially if this Person was Part of a Racist militia.
The Only way the Europeans could accept the Jews was by Kicking them out, So Now that you are Not in Europe they accept you congratulations, In Fact you are now considered an Extention of western influence in the east which is the greatest Honor you can ever recieve.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

We have a right to these lands [which lands?]. Or does this rule apply only to your people?

It applies to everybody.
However, if you are speaking as an Arab, then your land is not occupied and you have no claim.
If you are speaking as a Jew, then your land is occupied by Arabs and has to be freed.
If you are speaking as a Phoenician, then your land is occupied too, whether it is by Arabs or by Jews or by both it is for you to decide and act accordingly.
If you are speaking as a Egyptian, then your land is occupied by Arabs and has to be freed.
...
Above is true for the most of Middle East and North African countries.

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

I dont, i never wished for the Jews to leave, for they have always been part of this region and its inhabitants. But there is a big difference between accepting Jews and accepting a nation that has forcibly instilled its presence amidst our midst and has been nothing but a driver of destruction and dissolution of our people. It is sadly invoking and cultivating a culture of hate towards Jews in the heart of every Arab, a culture that was quite foreign before this vile mercenary state came to being.

Just like i dont expect Jews to leave, dont expect Arabs to leave also.

Very touching. I do not know you personally, you may be who you say you are. Unfortunately for you, actions of your brethren speak much louder than your nice words.

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

I never said you were an idiot, i said your argument was idiotic.

So, my argument is idiotic because I am not an idiot?

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

Have we shown otherwise?

I am not denying your right to fight and to show whatever you wish to show. I am simply trying to put things in proper prospective.
Common mistake majority here makes is that they think there is some kind of right or wrong in this matters.
Arabs occupied a lot of area. Where you wrong in doing that? Depends on who you ask.
Occupation lasted for so long that indigenous people forgot who they are (my heat off to Arabs, very clever move) and many think they are Arabs themselves. Many, but not Jews.
Today Jews are trying to free their land off occupiers. Are they wrong? Again, depends on who you ask.
Like I said, there is no right or wrong in this matters. There is only can or cannot do.

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

I hope one day we can be rid of this vile mercenary you call a state and establish a home where we can both live in peace and dignity, without anyone infringing upon the other. But that seems far fetched seeing your nations immaculate disregard to life towarsd these horned demons inside Gaza.

Hey, Jews did not start this war. Arabs did. Jews do not trust you anymore and living together is no longer possible.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Zayn

Everybody laughs at you, not just the two of us.



Your logic:

The "Arabs of Judea" are not indigenous to the land because they are not indigenous to their land.

This is not logic. This is stupidity.




You aren't posting any information, actually. You're posting your own twisted justifications for murder, theft, and occupation--all with no sources, links, or even a logical analysis.

Good day.

Arabs of Judea are as much indigenous to Judea as Jews of Arabia indigenous to Arabia.

Good day.