Omar Hassan Bashir, criminal or victim?

[Abou Sandal]

Why don't we Lebanese, first start to militate and work hard, to get the Israeli war criminals (and their American sponsors) who chronically butcher our population and commit on us war crimes,crimes against humanity,genocides and deportation,not to mention their records with torturing our civilian population under occupation?

Isn't it much more important for our country,to put our energy in this direction?

And I would really like to hear about those NGO's work concerning Lebanon.Not about some report here and there,but the same work and energy that they put in the Darfur file...Would they do that for Lebanon too?

And would those powerful nations who are backing up the ICC,back us up in our case too?

[Observer]

SO the feb 14 are with an arrest warrant for presidents only if it was about Bashar Assad but never with any other president. loool. The more we learn about their principles the more we know that they are highly unprincipled. Today most Darul fatwa shaykhs were attacking the arrest warrant agasint Bashir (only one letter different than the syrian president). It means KSA, HAriri and their employee @ darul fatwa i.e kabbani and below are against it. I did notknow that only one letter in somebody's name could make a huge difference in formulating a major foreign policy for powerful countries. looooooool

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by General my General!

That's irrelevant, what should that have to do with this? Ultimately no foreign country can make genocide in a far-away land without the consent and cooperation of locals. That is always the case. The US government, under Bush even, is not the most disastrous in human history. There have been many others. Of course when a superpower messes up, it usually has a larger impact, but still, what country is not guilty of persecution, torture and massacre. As much as we parade ourselves as just, all of our countries and people have throughout history raped justice. Granted that western powers have have a huge influence on this in the past century, but that doesn't mean we are also not guilty, for our inaction is just as bad as their action.

Cheers!

That is Relevant Either All of Them are Put to Trial or Not, Bachir should be Stopped from Massacring these ppl (if that is true I've not researched this) But If they wanna Do to him the Same thing they did to Saddam and Iraq then Forget it.

[General my General!]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Why don't we Lebanese, first start to militate and work hard, to get the Israeli war criminals (and their American sponsors) who chronically butcher our population and commit on us war crimes,crimes against humanity,genocides and deportation,not to mention their records with torturing our civilian population under occupation?

Isn't it much more important for our country,to put our energy in this direction?

And I would really like to hear about those NGO's work concerning Lebanon.Not about some report here and there,but the same work and energy that they put in the Darfur file...Would they do that for Lebanon too?

And would those powerful nations who are backing up the ICC,back us up in our case too?

I completely agree with you that we should certainly do more for our country than is being done. There were war crimes committed upon us in 2006, and it was some of the same NGOs supporting the move against Sudan's Bashir that reported on the war crimes happening in Lebanon. They have done more for us than we have done for ourselves in that regard.

Now when it comes to action...that is beyond publishing reports, making rallies and court complaints, the NGOs are limited since the shots are mainly called by the big power governments. Its sad, but that's the case.

If this country were to get things shaped up, if we end up with a proper state post-june 2009, with such a large diaspora we can definitely re-visit our justice claims from the past. I think this should be one of the priorities for the new government.

Cheers!

[General my General!]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

That is Relevant Either All of Them are Put to Trial or Not, Bachir should be Stopped from Massacring these ppl (if that is true I've not researched this) But If they wanna Do to him the Same thing they did to Saddam and Iraq then Forget it.

Justice is not all or nothing. You cannot defend morally or ethically that you will either bring to justice all, or none. Just as the police cannot say they will not investigate murders, because half of them remained unsolved.

There's an important point to keep in mind too...many of the massacres happening in Africa are precisely because the Western governments do not care about them. They'd cooperate with African governments to exploit oil, gold, precious metals and minerals at the expense of the local population. Back in 2003 most western governments couldn't give a **** that Darfurians were being slaughtered, its only after a build up of pressure from NGOs and citizen groups coupled with political interests (as always) that the issue came on the news. Still, let's not think twice, many of the West and East governments will happily agree to killing off every human if it means they can share the wealth.

The victim is the people, it always is.

Cheers!

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by General my General!

I completely agree with you that we should certainly do more for our country than is being done. There were war crimes committed upon us in 2006, and it was some of the same NGOs supporting the move against Sudan's Bashir that reported on the war crimes happening in Lebanon. They have done more for us than we have done for ourselves in that regard.

Now when it comes to action...that is beyond publishing reports, making rallies and court complaints, the NGOs are limited since the shots are mainly called by the big power governments. Its sad, but that's the case.

If this country were to get things shaped up, if we end up with a proper state post-june 2009, with such a large diaspora we can definitely re-visit our justice claims from the past. I think this should be one of the priorities for the new government.

Cheers!

True.Absolutely true.

Hopefully we'll get there someday soon...At least we owe it to ourselves and to those we lost,to try hard,as much as we can,also hopefully for someday our children would not despise us.

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by General my General!

Justice is not all or nothing. You cannot defend morally or ethically that you will either bring to justice all, or none. Just as the police cannot say they will not investigate murders, because half of them remained unsolved.

There's an important point to keep in mind too...many of the massacres happening in Africa are precisely because the Western governments do not care about them. They'd cooperate with African governments to exploit oil, gold, precious metals and minerals at the expense of the local population. Back in 2003 most western governments couldn't give a **** that Darfurians were being slaughtered, its only after a build up of pressure from NGOs and citizen groups coupled with political interests (as always) that the issue came on the news. Still, let's not think twice, many of the West and East governments will happily agree to killing off every human if it means they can share the wealth.

The victim is the people, it always is.

Cheers!

We Agree that Bachir should be stoppe, I wrote that in the post you replied to BUT THE PROBLEM IS THIS: " The one's who are Puniched are the people not the Government" USA never puniches the ones responsible Just yesterday they bombed a Mosque and arrested a few villagers in Afghanistan, you see....They like puniching the Innocents that have nothing to do with the Crimes, Just like the Iraqis were puniched for Saddam...WHY ARE THEY AFTER BACHIR NOW? WHAT IS THIER REAL GOAL after all if ur supporting justice then you can't have Criminals Extracting Justice on other Crimninals That will not be the Justice you seek.

[Danny Z]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

I have to say that the issue of Omar Hassan Bashir, the President of Sudan, is confusing. The ICC says he is a criminal but on TV we see demonstrations supporting him (I even once saw him on TV in Darfur with no bodyguards). It also seems that there is reconciliation going on in Sudan, so I doubt he is another Saddam Hussein. I also remarked that the ICC wants to charge him for being indirectly responsible for war crimes but not for genocide, while in the past, we were hearing that the Sudanese government committed a genocide in Darfur.

Since when the ICC is about justice, if he pays like Kazzafi did would he be OK? and for those who are saying the people should be judged for something they say, well who's judging? shouldn't we answer this too?

[4U2IMI8]

I’m not sure how my words can be so grossly misinterpreted and taken out of context. Some people need to hone their English language skills or refrain from answering post they don’t understand.
Here’s something from Assafir yesterday showing the hypocrisy and the selective application of justice that the US practices only on those they want to get rid of. They support the decision yet they refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the court.

صحـافي يحـرج البيـت الأبيـض: واشنطن لم تنضم إلى المحكمة!




أحرج صحافي أميركي، أمس، المتحدث باسم وزارة الخارجية الأميركية غوردن دوغيد، حين لاحقه بشأن معضلة تأييد واشنطن الحار لقرار توقيف الرئيس السوداني عمر البشير، فيما أنه صادر عن محكمة دولية رفضت الولايات المتحدة اصلا أن تكون عضواً فيها، على غرار الموقف السوداني منها.
وناور المتحدث غير مرة للإفلات من سؤال الصحافي بشأن ما إذا كانت الإدارة الأميركية «تعترف بالصلاحية القضائية للمحكمة الجنائية الدولية» الدائمة في لاهاي، مصّراً كل مرة على الردّ بأنها «تعترف بفاعلية هذه الخطوة (قرار التوقيف) في حلّ مشاكل السودان»؛ ثم ناور مجدداً للإفلات من سؤال لا يقلّ أهمية، حول السبب خلف مؤازرة واشنطن لملاحقة البشير، ودعمها في ما مضى لغالبية القادة ضد محاكم دولية أدانتهم بتهم مماثلة للتي يتهم بها الرئيس السوداني.
وطفح كيل الصحافي أخيراً، فصاح: «هل يمكن لأحد أن يدقق مع المحامين في هذا الشأن؟ أنا لا أفهم كيف يسعكم أن تدعموا المحكمة الجنائية الدولية ضد شخص على رأس دولة لا تعترف ـ مثلكم ـ بالمحكمة الجنائية الدولية!».
ومعلوم ان الولايات المتحدة سعت منذ الاعلان عن تأسيس المحكمة الجنائية الى توقيع اتفاقيات ثنائية مع العديد من الدول حول العالم لتوفير حصانة لمواطنيها وجنودها ومسؤوليها ضد اي ملاحقات دولية قد تطالهم.
(«السفير»)

[ArabJew]

Originally Posted by General my General!

It's funny that some people are completely ignoring the fact that it is not just the ICC that is stating this against Bashir, but also NGOs with excellent track records on various issues, including Iraq and Palestine, such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. The way I see it, they have done far more for justice than any of us, so we'd do best to at least give time to look it up further.

On a side note, a few years ago I met a small group of youth from Darfur, they had been suffering from persecutions since back then, and when they tried to spread the word to the world, everyone was either deaf or powerless to do anything about it. Their suffering is real, the scale and extent of genocide going on in Africa in places like Darfur, D.R.of Congo and others, is unimaginable to most. It is far beyond anything that we Lebanese, or the Palestinians or Iraqis or Israelis have ever been subjected to. But the world couldn't care less, or at least most of it. Only a few brave personalities, organizations and journals have only moved on this. We are all guilty of allowing such crimes to go unhindered into th 21st century. Shame. I am ashamed of myself that I cannot do more, and even more so of my country and my fellow humans.

I would have given you a 'thank you', until i saw 'Iraq' on the list. that, my friend, is when you are so sorely mistaken. The Ba'ath regime has butchered more than a million kurds in the al-anfal campaign, and countless shiites. this is enough to rank in with the worst of africa, i'm afraid. I do concur with the rest of your post, and it is a very important one for we are mostly blind to the suffering of others unless it touches upon us.

p.s.

The circassians who live amongst us (Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan) are also victims of vicious genocide, more than a million of them left to die in the bitter cold of the caucasus in a 'scorched earth campaign', but their story is rarely heard. no one gives a **** about them.