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  (#11 (permalink)) Old
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Default 4th March 2008

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Originally Posted by SeekNirvana View Post
I just don't see the point of us being with or against. People are free to choose what they want, and in these guys' case, the referendum in the early 90s was almost unanimous and the MPs unanimously declared the independence.
True.

Generally though, people support other declaring independence, but governments, especially governments of bigger states are against it as it might send the wrong signals to local separatist groups.

Having said that, I'm really curious to know where the Lebanese government/opposition stand on that issue.
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Default 4th March 2008

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Originally Posted by METALLICA View Post
True.

Generally though, people support other declaring independence, but governments, especially governments of bigger states are against it as it might send the wrong signals to local separatist groups.

Having said that, I'm really curious to know where the Lebanese government/opposition stand on that issue.
lol, personally I prefer if they take a stance on real Lebanese issues first.

Quote:
Yea because ethnic Albanians recently visited Kosovo, they've been there for not more than 2 weeks.
I think that's the key issue here. They've been a majority in Kosovo for at least more than a century now and it's not like they came to Kosovo when a sort of stable Serbian state already existed (as far as I know). I think it would've been better if a compromise has been reached but after 1999 there's absolutely no reason for Albanians to trust any form of Serbian rule.
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Default 4th March 2008

What's in it for Lebanon
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Default 5th March 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorje View Post
I think that's the key issue here. They've been a majority in Kosovo for at least more than a century now and it's not like they came to Kosovo when a sort of stable Serbian state already existed (as far as I know). I think it would've been better if a compromise has been reached but after 1999 there's absolutely no reason for Albanians to trust any form of Serbian rule.
Maybe dodzi's sensitivity is coming from the fact that this is a problem Lebanese will face soon with the Palestinians. Shouldn't it be a catalyst for us to push for a dialogue on the roots of our problems and not the number of ministers and the next President?
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Default 8th March 2008

Georgia's rebel Abkhazia calls for independence recognition

1 day ago

SUKHUMI, Georgia (AFP) — Georgia's breakaway region of Abkhazia appealed to the international community Friday to recognize its self-declared independence, citing Kosovo as a precedent.

"After the recognition of the independence of Kosovo by a large number of Western states... conditions favourable to the recognition of Abkhazia's independence have appeared," the Abkhaz parliament said in a statement.

The statement called on the United Nations and individual countries to "consider the recognition of the republic of Abkhazia as an independent, sovereign state."

A separate statement called on Russia's lower and upper houses, the State Duma and Federation Council, to do the same.

The Duma will consider the issue at a hearing on March 13, the deputy chairman of its international affairs committee, Leonid Slutsky, told Russia's ITAR-TASS news agency.

The declaration followed a similar vote on Wednesday by Georgia's other separatist region, South Ossetia, which also cited Kosovo in a call for the international community to recognize its self-declared independence.

The two regions' rebel leaders, Sergei Bagapsh of Abkhazia and Eduard Kokoity of South Ossetia, told Interfax that their provinces had as much right to independence as Kosovo.

"We call on the international community to refuse double standards and recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia," Bagapsh said.

"For us the situation with the recognition of Kosovo is a precedent and all talk of the uniqueness of that case is not credible."

Abkhazia and South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in conflicts in the early 1990s in which thousands of people were killed and hundreds of thousands of ethnic-Georgians were forced to leave their homes.

With economic and diplomatic support from Russia, the two Caucasus mountain provinces have existed as de facto independent states since then.

However, no country, including Russia, recognises their independence and Georgia says it intends to restore control.

Moscow fought unsuccessfully to prevent Western recognition of Kosovo's independence from Russian ally Serbia, warning Kosovo could serve as a precedent for other separatist struggles.

Friday's vote came as Georgia summoned Russia's ambassador and handed him a note to protest a decision by Moscow on Thursday to lift trade restrictions imposed on Abkhazia in 1996.

The Georgian foreign ministry said in a statement that Russia's move was "an extremely dangerous provocation that encourages separatism and aims to deepen tensions in the conflict zone."

The statement accused Moscow of "trying to violate Georgia's sovereignty."

Georgia said the sanctions had prevented Russia from supplying arms to Abkhazia and accused Moscow of preparing "the basis for providing the separatist government with military assistance."

================================================== =======

Yalla who's next?
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Default 8th March 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekNirvana View Post
Maybe dodzi's sensitivity is coming from the fact that this is a problem Lebanese will face soon with the Palestinians. Shouldn't it be a catalyst for us to push for a dialogue on the roots of our problems and not the number of ministers and the next President?
To tell you the truth I don't know much about Kosovo more than what I read and hear... And what I heard is that this Albanian minority came to the country progressively since the turn of the century, but that their number, though still minority in Kosovo, didn't start being important untill like 60 years ago!

Let's see the palestinians in the camps in a couple of years ask for a referendum and call for independance... I don't think the US would disagree with that would they?

Anyways, whatever their number. There are two unfair things here:
- all small minorities, even very tiny, will start calling for independance. Imagine a world with countries only of Kosovo's size... It is a precedent that can turn to chaos. All small minorities in the world will ask to be treated the same way. Maybe tomorrow, Lebanon will be divided into small countries with very distinct characteristics...
- this is the mark of the return of nationalism, a disease of mankind!
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Default 8th March 2008

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- this is the mark of the return of nationalism, a disease of mankind!
Must be kidding. The kosovar argument is no where near as nationalistic as the Serbian one. Serbs currently make 5% of Kosovo population, and Serbs think they have a right to rule Kosovo because in their opinion the land is Serbian based on some battle in 13 something. The only thing they care about is the land and not the actual people living on it. Ofcourse I'm not talking about all Serbians, but this is what the core of the argument entails. You could hardly be any more nationalistic than that.

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Let's see the palestinians in the camps in a couple of years ask for a referendum and call for independance... I don't think the US would disagree with that would they?
Why do you insist on comparing apples to oranges? The Kosovars didn't come to Kosovo as refugees or as immigrants in a Serbian state. They've been there for at least 500 years and have been a majority for at least a century or something. This is not all that relevant IMO, but stop making useless analogies. The Palestinian situation in Lebanon and the Kosovo one have nothing to do with each other.
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Default 8th March 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorje View Post
Serbs currently make 5% of Kosovo population
Can the serbs of Kosovo declare independence and form their own state within Kosovo? Will the US recognize them?
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Default 8th March 2008

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Originally Posted by Danny Z View Post
Can the serbs of Kosovo declare independence and form their own state within Kosovo? Will the US recognize them?
I wouldn't mind if territories with a Serbian majority went under Serbian rule. At least though I'm willing to give Albanians a chance, and see whether they would really grant Serbians equal rights, something Serbs failed to do. It's not something the Serbs want however, because that would entail losing claim to the whole of Kosovo.

You have to send an email to Condi if you want to know if the US would recognize them or not.
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Default 8th March 2008

Interesting piece:

Is Kosovo Serbia? We ask a historian
  • <LI class=byline>Noel Malcolm <LI class=publication>The Guardian,
  • Tuesday February 26 2008
  • Article history
About this article

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This article appeared in the Guardian on Tuesday February 26 2008 on p3 of the Comment & features section. It was last updated at 00:01 on February 26 2008.


"Kosovo is Serbia", "Ask any historian" read the unlikely placards, waved by angry Serb demonstrators in Brussels on Sunday. This is rather flattering for historians: we don't often get asked to adjudicate. It does not, however, follow that any historian would agree, not least because historians do not use this sort of eternal present tense.
History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue.
What is true is that they ruled Kosovo for about 250 years, until the final Ottoman takeover in the mid-15th century. Churches and monasteries remain from that period, but there is no more continuity between the medieval Serbian state and today's Serbia than there is between the Byzantine Empire and Greece.
Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.
But legally, Kosovo was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006.
Until the destruction of the old federal Yugoslavia by Milosevic, Kosovo had a dual status. It was called a part of Serbia; but it was also called a unit of the federation. In all practical ways, the latter sense prevailed: Kosovo had its own parliament and government, and was directly represented at the federal level, alongside Serbia. It was, in fact, one of the eight units of the federal system.
Almost all the other units have now become independent states. Historically, the independence of Kosovo just completes that process. Therefore, Kosovo has become an ex-Yugoslav state, as any historian could tell you.
· Noel Malcolm is a senior research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford. He is the author of Kosovo: A Short History

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008.../kosovo.serbia
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