The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

[WiseCookie]

Originally Posted by Omega80

Come on, you can't be serious now?!? What kind of a scandal that would the entail of that were to happen!

It was a hypothetical situation. It was never meant to be taken literally and as a real example, but just to show how influence can be done discretely.

[YOSS]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

You might have a point there, but what if the king of SA orders all the saudis and muslims in general from the arab peninsula to withdraw their money from lebanese banks and put them in other banks ? He might not do it publicy, maybe through clergy ?

Naa.

Friendly advice, watch out for the "what if" statements.

Long Live the Emperor!

[Free_Patriot]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

I think we should always have a good relation with Saudi Arabia , i want to go to HAJ next year enshallah , so dont mess with the relations please. :flagl:

Good luck Haj Mounty I wish I the kind of power that could mess with the relations with another country, I would surely use it positively :LEBANON: :logo:

They are kind of strict with shias , but relations with lebanese shias took different shape since 1990. Before 1990 , the saudis tried to kill most of the lebanese shiat clerics including Seyed Hussien Fadllah when Ameer Bandar was the head of the intellegence of saudi state.
Now its different , the guys are more open to politics and bec of Rafic hariri effort to normalize the relations of lebanese shiats with the saudi kings now we r in better position with them.

Almost all sects are benifiting from the saudi investments in lebanon. I think they are the only people who are investing heavily in our economy.

Salam

While the first part of that post is a serious and very interesting accusation, the second part sounds more like a Lebanese MP speech who is trying to be very diplomatic and politically correct. Are you trying to balance your tone regarding Saudi? Why would they try to kill Sayed Hussein Fadlallah? It's also interesting the role that former PM Hariri (RIP) played. It sounds like it's a very positive one.

Originally Posted by Omega80

So you have seen Wahhabi fundamentalism in Lebanon, is that what you are saying?
Bring me some proof, a news clip, anything that shows that Saudi Arabia is funding or supporting Wahabi Extremism in Saudi Arabia then we'll discuss it, you can't just say what you feel is happening. It is true the Saudis funded such things in Afghanistan and Pakistan for example, but I don't see it in Lebanon.

I am afraid we need Observer on that one . No I haven't seen Wahhabi fundamentalism but I have seen Salafis and Hizb Ta7rir extremists in the streets and mosques of my home town Tripoli. Rumours are that they are funded by sources in Saudi Arabia. No I have no proofs. Sorry. I guess we can't move any further in this discussion with this kind of argument because I am not trying to conduct an investigation, but why do you insist on denying? If that's what they did in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Unknownstan etc... why would they not do the same in Lebanon?

[Omega80]

Khaye, let's say some Saudis are funding the building of some Mosques and handing out payments to some extremist imams. Is it individual Saudis or is it the Government?

Also, let us assume that what you are saying is correct, is a big problem in Lebanon, as in, Saudi funded extremists? I'm sure we would be hearing more about it in the media if that was the case, don't you think? I mean, it is not really about an investigation, but rather that if accusations are going to be made that aren't well known, proof might need to be given.

[Free_Patriot]

Originally Posted by Omega80

Khaye, let's say some Saudis are funding the building of some Mosques and handing out payments to some extremist imams. Is it individual Saudis or is it the Government?

Also, let us assume that what you are saying is correct, is a big problem in Lebanon, as in, Saudi funded extremists? I'm sure we would be hearing more about it in the media if that was the case, don't you think? I mean, it is not really about an investigation, but rather that if accusations are going to be made that aren't well known, proof might need to be given.

My understanding is that individual Saudis, such as Hariri for example, usually work under the umbrella of the government or under its approval. Rafic Hariri (RIP) and his children are Saudi citizens and there is a lot of talk on their soft stances regarding the salafi exteremists. Donations and funding of such organizations cannot happen without the knowledge of the Saudi regime that decides when to turn a blind eye. That's an opinion based on the way I understand the Saudi system of governance. I am not making acccusations and I have no certainty and no proof. I cannot do any better than that.

On the other hand, it seems to me that the ideology of these extermists is imported from Saudi Arabia, which means that the role of Saudi Arabia is not just a financial equation.

[Stella]

Can anybody debate the influence of KSA on economic and financial life of Lebanon? I doubt that. Then how can anybody assume that KSA has no influence on the politics of Lebanon? Surely it has. Why would then Siniora pay visits so often to the king, and discuss the internal politics of Lebanon with him? Dont you think that the king gives even some guidlines to Siniora through some economic decisions? I guess we all know that the major decisions are always driven by economic interests.
Of course it would be the best if Lebanon could remain independent from any foreign interferences or factors, but taking into consideration the regional situation, it is impossible in the near future.
However the question is how successfully can Lebanon handle these foreign factors, and even benefit from them, rather than becoming dependent on them?

I would like to know since when has KSA considerable influence on Lebanon? I know it had some influence way before Taif, since 1975, when it has acted as a mediator. Can we mark the beginning of the civil war as the beginning of KSA interests in Lebanon, or has it begun even earlier?

[Omega80]

I believe if we are going to worry about foreign influence, we should worry more about Syria, Iran, the U.S., and France more than we should worry about Saudi Arabia.

I still don't see the grave danger if the Hariri's or some Saudis give money to some Islamic organizations in Lebanon. I don't see how that is a major threat to the country at all. Are they funding Madrassa's or similar types of schools to spread extremism in Lebanon?

Instead of worrying about Saudi Arabia on this issue, we should worry more about Syria and reports that they are sending weapons and Al-Qaeda sympathizers into Lebanon.

[mehdi soldier]

when it come to business dealings with saudi ,i believe it should be mutual.the lebanese economy must be put first.however we dont need saudis buying lands and then trying to gain a "qualification" to become lebanese.jublatt has done it with the syrian druze,helping them to gain citizenship because of their money.


when it comes to politics,i think we need to distant ourselves a bit from the saudi regime.saudi arabia has no democratic infrastructure in place.its a limited monarchy thats back by the usa.i would amused when saudi was at a time trying to urge us to be "democratic".i think they said we should abolish the sectarian system while at the same time they are lobbying for tehe palestinians to become full lebanese citizens.

also we should not forget the problems minorities are facing in saudi.there are 5million shiites mostly in the eastern oil rich region of the kingdom who are deprived .there are also over a million ismailis who cannot practice their faith.shiites were excited to hold ashura commemoration openly because they have always being maltreated on such occassions.they are not allowed to build mosques or hussayniyya.hopefully things would change with the rule of king abdallah.

[YOSS]

Originally Posted by Stella23

Can anybody debate the influence of KSA on economic and financial life of Lebanon? I doubt that. Then how can anybody assume that KSA has no influence on the politics of Lebanon? Surely it has. Why would then Siniora pay visits so often to the king, and discuss the internal politics of Lebanon with him? Dont you think that the king gives even some guidlines to Siniora through some economic decisions? I guess we all know that the major decisions are always driven by economic interests.
Of course it would be the best if Lebanon could remain independent from any foreign interferences or factors, but taking into consideration the regional situation, it is impossible in the near future.
However the question is how successfully can Lebanon handle these foreign factors, and even benefit from them, rather than becoming dependent on them?

I would like to know since when has KSA considerable influence on Lebanon? I know it had some influence way before Taif, since 1975, when it has acted as a mediator. Can we mark the beginning of the civil war as the beginning of KSA interests in Lebanon, or has it begun even earlier?

Stella before 75 that "influence" was mainly for the Palestinian cause and their presence in Lebanon and the fight against Israel etc. The Kingdom funded the PLO who operated out of Lebanon.

Saudi Arabia did not historically have direct influence in Lebanon, however major was their influence. Their influence was rather on Syria and before 1975 The Kingdom was for the project of Big Syria and their main interest was establish economic relations and strenghthen the Arab League.

Its a very complicated story as many in the middle east; but the Arab League project was pushed by Anthony Aiden, the British foreign secretary at the time (1945) and the countries involved were: KSA, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan & Yemen. And it wasn't due to the deep need within the Arabs to unite, rather the British's deep need for them to form an alliance of some sort that would give the British two advantages:
1. Create an Arab coalition that is loyal to them and avoid any major power of taking over in the Arabian Peninsula in the future.
2. It facilitates negotiation with ONE body versus many little countries...

Proof is in the pudding; if the Arab League was a "United we stand" kinda initiative, it would be far more efficient and effective than it has been...

In 1950, Saudi Arabia extended its first commercial aggreement with Syria, and to motivate them, offerred them a BIG initiation bonus. The Saudi's prior to that were VERY busy with tribal issues, Ottomans, Brits, etc.

Once a nation formed, their peers were Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc. societies with a lot of intellect, history & a culture that is different from the Persian Gulf ones, hence, why they felt they needed to incentivise (business word not in dictionnary) the Syrians to work with them through a gesture of good
Arabic will (the bonus).

In the older days, Egypt was aggressive to the first Saudi state (i'm not sure of the year, in the 1930's I think...) so within the first Arab league in 1950, Syria seemed to be a major power broker and an example of some sort to the Saudis about modern arabism etc.

Their involvement in Lebanon was therefore eventually through Syria, and that brings us to the intersection of where when Hariri intervened in 1989 and setup the Al-Taif meeting using his Saudi contacts, their power broker (the Saudi's) was Syria. Hariri needed that thread to start his own work but not because he liked the Syrians (I think), but needed them at the time. However, he did not fail to enforce a Syrian withdrawal timetable - never done before- in the Al Taif accord. and the last proof, when he went to enforce it, he rested in Peace.

Saudi Arabia did not have an 'active' role of planning and strategising like Israel or Syria did let alone good ol uncle Sam, but they were being used well by the appropriate power brokers in the regions, appropiately.

On the business investment side, it's an individual choice - no Saudi plan persae. To understand this, you need to understand how they work within the Kingdom. WiseCookie's comment about the King ordering no more business with Lebanon, and maybe through the clergy is simply not realistic.

There is an organization in Saudi Arabia that enforces the Kor'an and that the Royal Family has no control over.. They cannot. There are Princes who open shopping malls where young ppl eventually hang out to meet coz there's nothing else, and those "clergy" just barge in and arrest ppl etc.

They ("clergy") also impose prayor times and stores close. Lots of selling time lost, Royal family can do nothing about.

Let alone Saudi Arabia's issues on the Yemen border, where most of the fututre oil wells will be, and those borders have only been traced recently (10 years ago or so). Pleasing the west & the UN always had its purpose for them (Royal Family) - the source of their wealth, oil, gold, etc. While not necessarily the interest of the Saudi people who follow the "clergy" or what is called only in Arabic so sorry Bots! "jam3iyyat al Amr bel Ma3roof Wal nahi 3an al mounkar". They only have their title in Arabic Stella so sorry :) (Translation might be: Organisation for ordering the teachings on ppl, and forbid them from what is not allowed)... huh?


All to say that on a strategic/political level, up to 1975 they really didn't have enough gumption yet to have considerable influence in our region except send money to Palestinians in support of their cause. The strategic/politcal matters were directed by PLO-Syria-Iran-Israel-US-USSR and company ;)

Today, they are even weaker politically; only individual private interest is active in Lebanon; a water they are simply addicted to just like many non-lebanese who drank from it and Love lebanon

[YOSS]

Originally Posted by Omega80

I believe if we are going to worry about foreign influence, we should worry more about Syria, Iran, the U.S., and France more than we should worry about Saudi Arabia.

I still don't see the grave danger if the Hariri's or some Saudis give money to some Islamic organizations in Lebanon. I don't see how that is a major threat to the country at all. Are they funding Madrassa's or similar types of schools to spread extremism in Lebanon?

Instead of worrying about Saudi Arabia on this issue, we should worry more about Syria and reports that they are sending weapons and Al-Qaeda sympathizers into Lebanon.

Exactemento....................................... .....................................:flagl: