The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

[Free_Patriot]

Originally Posted by LubnanALkawi

now you anti sunist Free patriot loool thats the problem in lebanon if you say anything about iran you are traitor same thing about saudi arabia and other

Don't worry, in the days to come I will also be anti-maronite and anti-orthodox and will have no more friends :flagl:

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

But then again, how can they be american allies but still fund terrorism throughout the world ? Something does not seem right in this relationship in my opinion, but if anyone watched Farenheit 911 you would see that there is a link between the two, although it seems to be a bit far fetched, it does make a point.

On the contraty, it's not far fetched because the capitalist would sleep with the ennemy and enjoy it when there are profits to be made. It's not just the movie F9/11, there are a lot of other books about the controversial relationship between the Bush administration and the Saudi Government, check for example Craig Unger's "House of Bush House of Saud, the secret relationship between the two world's most powerful dynasties".
Regarding the influence on Lebanon, the theory is that the Saudi Government allows the Salafis and Wahhabis to have complete ideological freedom and most importantly allows their funding through various "donation" channels in exchange for the security of the royal regime and its huge financial interests. People argue about the analogy of Hariri and his relationship with the Lebanese extermists, i.e., don't make any troubles, you get the funding and the freedom of "speech". This relationship is however vulnerable after 9/11 because Al-Quaida went way off the Saudi chart with its activities. We're witnessing troubles in Saudi Arabia where attacks are targeting strategic oil refineries, the heart of Saudi's money making giants, and in response Saudi police are raiding some terrorist targets in the country. But in Lebanon, Future Movement political and media machine still seem to be taking it easy with the Salafi extremists. Both Salfis of Lebanon and Harirists of Lebanon, made their money from the same source: Saudi Arabia!

Originally Posted by Omega80

I myself grew up in Saudi Arabia because my father worked there. I also don't see how they are helping Wahhabism to grow in Lebanon, unless someone has facts related to this they would like to share with us.

It's a fact that your family benefited in a good way from Saudi Arabia, your father worked hard and earned his money there. It's a fact because you saw it and lived it. You didn't see the support of Wahhabism because it's not personally related to you, that doesn't mean it's not happening. That's why we have a discussion Is there anyone in Lebanon who have any admiration to the Saudi way of life? In that case, is it based on interest or faith? I don't know.

Originally Posted by Danny Z

Canada says no to the US repeatedly and the US gets pissed off sometimes punishes Canada with trade sanctions against NAFTA rulings yet the US still punishes its own consumers this way. Usually the disputes are minor and nothing major happens. Lebanon can say no to Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia can fire all Lebanese working in Saudi and we would both loose.
If somebody sees further than his nose then mutual respect is the way to be uses between nations. However nations should represent their people, because it is only in democracies that if a ruler is sanctioned if his pride gets over the country's pride; and in Saudi Arabia they can fire all Lebanese, damage their own economy and ours and not get sanctioned for it.
While in Lebanon, leaders kill and murder and then people re-elect them.
So before we move away from our banana republic and kingdoms, no healthy relations can be built in the middle east.

Exactly, in our region people don't look at things the way Americans and Canadians do. Kaddafi didn't mind kicking out all the Palestinians to put pressure on Arafat. The Kuweitis did the same after the first Gulf War to punish Arafat for his support to Saddam. The point is, yes it happens and Lebanese cannot afford it. Not only we can't say no to Saudis, I am afraid that under the Hariris we also have to wait for their instructions!

[YOSS]

Many seem to assume while discussing the Saudi involvement in Lebanon, that is was planned, either by them or the US who - still based on some's assumptions - control them.

Its true they are involved both economically & politically in Lebanon if you take the examples given by some: Private investment & Hariri's initiatives from Taif to date.

BUT, its not a planned involvement. The Kingdom is involved on a PR level only, believe it or not. There is barely enough planning to sustain local and GCC issues...

Going back to our examples, on the political side, it was Hariri's initiative, and he used his high end Saudi contacts (Royal Family) to achive his objectives.

And some political statements regarding Lebanon are influenced by the US surely - again, Saudi: PR only.

On the economical side, it is private investors, enticed by experience, or a Lebanese 'connaissance', and not planned by the Saudi Gov. persae.

[WiseCookie]

Originally Posted by YOSS

Many seem to assume while discussing the Saudi involvement in Lebanon, that is was planned, either by them or the US who - still based on some's assumptions - control them.

Its true they are involved both economically & politically in Lebanon if you take the examples given by some: Private investment & Hariri's initiatives from Taif to date.

BUT, its not a planned involvement. The Kingdom is involved on a PR level only, believe it or not. There is barely enough planning to sustain local and GCC issues...

Going back to our examples, on the political side, it was Hariri's initiative, and he used his high end Saudi contacts (Royal Family) to achive his objectives.

And some political statements regarding Lebanon are influenced by the US surely - again, Saudi: PR only.

On the economical side, it is private investors, enticed by experience, or a Lebanese 'connaissance', and not planned by the Saudi Gov. persae.

You might have a point there, but what if the king of SA orders all the saudis and muslims in general from the arab peninsula to withdraw their money from lebanese banks and put them in other banks ? He might not do it publicy, maybe through clergy ?

[mount_amel]

I think we should always have a good relation with Saudi Arabia , i want to go to HAJ next year enshallah , so dont mess with the relations please. :flagl:

Saudi Arabia , although i dont agree with its all forgin poilitics but are good people who are investing in our country and have trusted us and stabilized our economy by thier not just investments but thier presence.

They are kind of strict with shias , but relations with lebanese shias took different shape since 1990. Before 1990 , the saudis tried to kill most of the lebanese shiat clerics including Seyed Hussien Fadllah when Ameer Bandar was the head of the intellegence of saudi state.
Now its different , the guys are more open to politics and bec of Rafic hariri effort to normalize the relations of lebanese shiats with the saudi kings now we r in better position with them.

Almost all sects are benifiting from the saudi investments in lebanon. I think they are the only people who are investing heavily in our economy.

Salam

[WiseCookie]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

I think we should always have a good relation with Saudi Arabia , i want to go to HAJ next year enshallah , so dont mess with the relations please. :flagl:

Saudi Arabia , although i dont agree with its all forgin poilitics but are good people who are investing in our country and have trusted us and stabilized our economy by thier not just investments but thier presence.

They are kind of strict with shias , but relations with lebanese shias took different shape since 1990. Before 1990 , the saudis tried to kill most of the lebanese shiat clerics including Seyed Hussien Fadllah when Ameer Bandar was the head of the intellegence of saudi state.
Now its different , the guys are more open to politics and bec of Rafic hariri effort to normalize the relations of lebanese shiats with the saudi kings now we r in better position with them.

Almost all sects are benifiting from the saudi investments in lebanon. I think they are the only people who are investing heavily in our economy.

Salam

That's true, but we or me, are trying to tackle it from the government's side and not the people. In other words politically and not socially.

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

That's true, but we or me, are trying to tackle it from the government's side and not the people. In other words politically and not socially.

Politicaly , the Saudis want lebanon to be stable. They are the leading Arabic country and trying to play an objective role in lebanon. The Hariri family are a special case , they are saudis. The sunnis in lebanon are not all pro-saudis so i cant say the sunni street are pro-saudi and so to shiats pro-iranians and to maroinites pro-french.

Saudis dont want lebanon to lose its uniquness and also sees lebanon as thier dubai in the future. Hope so.

If talking about saudis , we can not seperate the social and the political factor.

Salam

[WiseCookie]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

Politicaly , the Saudis want lebanon to be stable. They are the leading Arabic country and trying to play an objective role in lebanon. The Hariri family are a special case , they are saudis. The sunnis in lebanon are not all pro-saudis so i cant say the sunni street are pro-saudi and so to shiats pro-iranians and to maroinites pro-french.

Saudis dont want lebanon to lose its uniquness and also sees lebanon as thier dubai in the future. Hope so.

If talking about saudis , we can not seperate the social and the political factor.

Salam

Are u sure its an objective role in Lebanon and not a pro-american one ? We all know who the Saud family is allied to. I do'nt think anyone ever stated that all the sunni's are saudi. We're talking about the political ties right now. When you talk about social levels u mean between the two people, and not the governments.

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

Are u sure its an objective role in Lebanon and not a pro-american one ? We all know who the Saud family is allied to. I do'nt think anyone ever stated that all the sunni's are saudi. We're talking about the political ties right now. When you talk about social levels u mean between the two people, and not the governments.

The saudis are pro-americans , so what ?
I am not saying we have to be so tied to the saudis so that we excute orders. A balanced realtionship between the two goverment can make us independent in a way or another. However , like all countries we have to look where our interests are : If we do agree with the saudis this might not be out of convenience but out of interests. This dosnt make us dependent but a goverment that wants the best for its people.

Social levels !! I said investments !! Investments that are the only way for you and me to get out of our sick economy. USA's policies is based on investments in each country.

As i said , we can not seperate the two : Economy and political decsion.

Salam

[Omega80]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

but what if the king of SA orders all the saudis and muslims in general from the arab peninsula to withdraw their money from lebanese banks and put them in other banks ? He might not do it publicy, maybe through clergy ?

Come on, you can't be serious now?!? What kind of a scandal that would the entail of that were to happen!

Originally Posted by Free_Patriot

You didn't see the support of Wahhabism because it's not personally related to you, that doesn't mean it's not happening. That's why we have a discussion Is there anyone in Lebanon who have any admiration to the Saudi way of life? In that case, is it based on interest or faith? I don't know.

So you have seen Wahhabi fundamentalism in Lebanon, is that what you are saying?
Bring me some proof, a news clip, anything that shows that Saudi Arabia is funding or supporting Wahabi Extremism in Saudi Arabia then we'll discuss it, you can't just say what you feel is happening. It is true the Saudis funded such things in Afghanistan and Pakistan for example, but I don't see it in Lebanon.

[WiseCookie]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

The saudis are pro-americans , so what ?
I am not saying we have to be so tied to the saudis so that we excute orders. A balanced realtionship between the two goverment can make us independent in a way or another. However , like all countries we have to look where our interests are : If we do agree with the saudis this might not be out of convenience but out of interests. This dosnt make us dependent but a goverment that wants the best for its people.

Social levels !! I said investments !! Investments that are the only way for you and me to get out of our sick economy. USA's policies is based on investments in each country.

As i said , we can not seperate the two : Economy and political decsion.

Salam

That's true. I never said we shouldn't have a good relationship with anyone, but conveniece is interest. It is in my interest so it is convenient for me. It makes us dependent because we owe. When you owe something to some one else that's bigger and has more influence then what can u do but abide by thier orders. I put the New TV example to show you how influence can come and rise to a seen level. If they have the ability to influence free media, then what ? Ofcourse i am not denying that we don't need the arab investment in Lebanon, however, at what cost do you want it? Either u live a prisoner all ur life, but safe, or free but always at risk. It all goes down to the same concept. We want their investment and interest only at an economic level but not on a political level. I'm personally sick of every single international political figure butting into our affairs. We can handle ourselves on our own if they stop interfering.

However, moving back to what u said, economics does go with politics, that's true, however i never said we should call for war again the KSA : / nor did i say that we have to cut our ties. I was just calling against any intervention of any sort.