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  (#41 (permalink)) Old
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Default 14th June 2009

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Originally Posted by Learned View Post
In any case, I find it highly unlikely that you would know anything about how good or bad either candidate potentially was for their own country and people, because your rhetoric and attitude towards Iran is reflective of an individual whose views are shaped by slanted Western media characterization of Iran's politics and people.
Actually, you might be right that i don't follow closely all the details of the iranian politics and as little powers as the president has, i honestly believe that having a moderate in the presidency could directly lead to less tensions in the region.

Iran and the middle east doesn't need a cowboy controlling Iran and running the country down the drain for the sake of heroic semantics along the likes of Chavez and Morales that have brought nothing more to the country as a such.

Najad is much more interested in scoring points against the US and Israel than to improve the economic and political conditions of his people, Iran's economy is as bad if not worse than that of the arab gul states with 75% of the exports being oil and gas leaving Iran at the total mercy of the world markets and one of the reason of the current mini revolt against najad is the populist economic policy that almost brought the country to the brink of collapse b/c of the high inflation and collapse in world oil prices.
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CNN: Violent riots breaking out in Iran. Massauvi under house arrest.
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Originally Posted by Learned View Post
For over a decade, we have been hearing that a revolution in Iran is eminent from Western media. And its all bull and wishful thinking propagated by a narrow minority concentrated in Tehran's upper-class neighborhoods that refuses to come to terms with the popularity of conservatives in Iran. The reformists do not represent anything close to the overall popular will of the people, even among Iran's youth, and not even all of the reformists would back a revolution. Many would stand against it.

If this is true well then the iranians got what they wanted after all...and if those "upper class" dont like it they have the chance to emigrate right? In case they would stay and resist the system, and work on the change, then all credit goes to them.
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I Know people who said they wanna Burn thier Pssports if Nijad won, HAHAAHA I bet they havn't.
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LOL. Where did you hear this? I have relatives living in tehran, and the "revolution" is nothing more than a bunch of bache sosouls yelling in the streets and burning tires. Haha. I'll remind you tomorrow when your "revolution" turns out to be a bunch of kids disturbing the peace.

For over a decade, we have been hearing that a revolution in Iran is eminent from Western media. And its all bull and wishful thinking propagated by a narrow minority concentrated in Tehran's upper-class neighborhoods that refuses to come to terms with the popularity of conservatives in Iran. The reformists do not represent anything close to the overall popular will of the people, even among Iran's youth, and not even all of the reformists would back a revolution. Many would stand against it.
Yes this is the truth, The fIRST Revolution was properly played and they have Dominated the Iranian Media and we in Lebanon all know what the media can do (Specially to those outside Tehran and in the villages).I was 100% sure this would happen and they never dissapoint do they ? hehe.
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Default 14th June 2009

Go go iran i truly respect those Iranian who are against this Islamic rule!

the Iranian are people who love life, freedom and they always wanted to be friends with the west i know so many iranian who hate the currently Islamic regime... its enough with dictatorship since 1979 i hope this would be start of new secular revolution but i doubt!

and i hope one day the saudis will have the same courage as the free people of real iran
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Originally Posted by Salome View Post
If this is true well then the iranians got what they wanted after all...and if those "upper class" dont like it they have the chance to emigrate right? In case they would stay and resist the system, and work on the change, then all credit goes to them.
There isn't much chance of that happening. I don't think that most people really have a clear idea of how politics work in Iran, and they are looking at what is happening now from the lenses of West media, which is actually quite ridiculous and totally off base in its coverage. I will try to explain:

In Iran, there are a number of camps that make up the political dynamic of the country, and they can be more or less separated into the following categories:

First the conservatives:

The supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei: he has the final say on all major matters in the country, but in reality he is somewhat of a passive leader, who rules through "soft" power, and although constitutionally he is supposed to do whatever he wants, in reality he lacks the political capital to rule the way Khomeini did. However, he does control the Revolutionary Guard and Baseej (civilian militia). The government controls the army and police forces.

The old guard and clerical establishment: This centers around personalities like Ayatollah Jannati, Ayatollah Mesbah Yazdi, and other prominent politically active clerics who represent what really is a multi-faceted clerical establishment that ranges from hard line conservative to conservative. Ayatollah Mesbah Yazdi, for example, is a backer of Ahmadinejad.

Ahmadinejad: current president of Iran.

All of these can be grouped into what is called the conservative camp in the country, although this does not make the conservative camp a unified political party or even unified coalition. Ayatollah Khamenei, for example, is not represented by Ahmadinejad, although Ahmadijad is loyal to wilayat al faqih.

Next, the "reformist" camp:

Hashemi Rafsanjani: he is the Iranian equivalent of Lebanon's Rafik Hariri. He is massively wealthy, extremely powerful, has control or sway over many portions of Iran's economic interests, and has many people in government who owe him their positions and are loyal to him. Ironically though, he is part of the old guard and clerical establishment, and he is forced to stay loyal to the waliy al faqih ideology in the political sense, but he aspires to become waliy al faqih himself, which puts him at odds with conservatives and Ayatollah Khamenei, although he does not oppose Khamenei outwardly because opposing the supreme leader is a "red line" politically.

Khatami: Former president of Iran, is one of the faces of the reformist camp.

In reality, the reformist camp itself is not a unified coalition either, and it is actually much more fractured and disorganized than the conservatives are. The runner up in the election, Musavi for example, was relatively unknown until a few weeks ago when the reformist base rallied around him for reasons that I will explain. Musavi himself has no real popular backing, and what is happening right now has absolutely nothing to do with him at all.

The Western media tends to portray the reformist camp as liberal-minded educated Iranians who are friendly towards the West, and want to overthrow the regime. They also like to pretend that regime change is a viable possibility, and that the reformists are the suppressed majority in Iran. However, this couldn't be farther from the truth. The reformist camp is rather a loose coalition of many different political interests, some of which are extreme minorities, and others which are massively powerful.

It does contain some heavyweights such as Khatami, who was considering running in the elections but withdrew for what he claimed was "unifying" the reformist ranks around one candidate, but the reality was that Hashemi Rafsanjani pressured him to withdraw his candidacy. Rafsanjani, who is ironically not a reformist at all, and who is wildly corrupt and actually quite despised by a solid majority of Iranian voters, is basically in control of the real effective powerbases of the reformist camp. Iran's so-called pro-Western liberals are almost non-existent in terms of political power, and represent a very small minority in the country.

In truth, this election wasn't between Ahmadinejad and Musavi. It was between Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad. For those who payed attention, much of the campaigning and rhetoric in the weeks leading up to the election focused on the spat between Ahmadinejad and Rafsanjani, who accused the latter on specific charges of corruption. Rafsanjani, who is doing his best to put himself in a position to become waliy al faqih, sees Ahmadinejad as a threat to his prospects of ascention (which are already bleak and Rafsanjani knows this), so he put his weight behind Musavi hoping that he could force Ahmadijenad out of power and install a loyal ally as President. Rafsanjani actually funded most of Musavi's campaign (for example, his daughter donated a whopping $300 million to Musavi).

The reason that Ahmadinejab won an apparent landslide victory isn't really because 2/3 of Iranian voters love him so much. To be sure, Iran's conservative base is significantly larger than the reformist base, and much better organized, but Ahmadinejad owes a non-negligable portion of his victory to many reformists who voted for him, not because they support him, but because they oppose Rafsanjani more than they oppose Ahmadinejad. I know for example, that many of the expatriate Iranians in California, who are liberals generally opposed to the theocracy in Iran (whom I have contacts with) voted for Ahmadinejad and not Musavi because it was clear that Rafsanjani was backing him. All through the election period, for example, Rafsanjani was using Musavi's newspaper to attack Ahmadijenad.

What is happening right now, in terms of the riots and what-not, is not representative of popular anger over the re-election of Ahmadinejad. It is really representative of Rafsanjani making noise over Musavi's loss in the polls. Rafsajani is sending a message, basically reminding Ahmadinejad that he still controls a lot of the strings in Iran, especially since Ahmadinejad seems adamant on exposing Rafsanjani for his widespread corruption. The two are basically political enemies. For this reason, what is happening right now has nothing to do with a popular rising or the prospect of a "revolution" in the offing. Rafsanjani is basically behind it, flexing his muscles, but the reality here is that Rafsanjani cannot take it any farther even if he wanted to - and he doesn't. One thing that Rafsanjani doesn't have control over is the military, whether that be the basij, the Revolutionary guard, army, intelligence services, or police forces. The basij and guard are controlled by Khamenei, and the police and army are controlled by Ahmadinejad's government. Even if he did, however, Rafsanjani has a vented interest in preserving the regime - because he is a part of it, and he aspires to head it as waliy al faqih. He isn't going to back a revolution against it, because it will bring him down before anyone else thanks to his notoriousness for being corrupt - even if there were any real prospects for a revolution, which there aren't. If these kids in the streets continue burning busses and creating a disturbance, Khamenei will eventually call on the basij to hit the streets and shut them down, and that will be the end of it.
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My friends of Iranian origins are going crazy on Facebook. It sort-of reminds me of when the Syrian left Lebanon. Anyway, Moussawi's spokesman has just declared it a political coup:
Quote:
Spokesman: Political Coup


By MUHAMMAD SAHIMI in Los Angeles | 13 June 2009
[TEHRAN BUREAU] In an interview, Mr. Mohsen Makhbalbaf, the distinguish movie director and spokesman for Mr. Mir Hossein Mousavi, has declared that there has been a coup in Iran whereby the elections have been rigged, and peoples vote have been altered on a vast scale, in order to declare President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the victor.
According to Mr. Makhbalbaf, in the early hours after voting had ended, the Interior Ministry had called Mr. Mousavis campaign headquarters to inform them that Mr. Mousavi would be the winner and, therefore, Mr. Mousavi must prepare a victory statement. Mr. Mousavi was, however, asked by the Ministry not to boast too much, in order not to upset Mr. Ahmadinejads supporters. Many of the presidents supporters are among the ranks of the Basij militia, and thus armed.
According to Mr. Makhbalbaf, the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, was also informed of the developments. He also recommended a good management of the victory statement, meaning not boasting greatly about the victory, because that would be in Irans national interests and stability.
At the same time, the reformist newspapers were also informed that they can prepare their Saturday edition to declare Mr. Mousavi the winner, but were not allowed to use the word pirouzi (victory) in their articles, in order not to upset Mr. Ahmadinejads supporters. One reformist newspaper prepared its front page with the title, People took back the flag of their country [from Mr. Ahmadinejad].
But, just a few hours later, a center that had been set up by Mr. Mousavi in Gheytarieh (in northern Tehran) for monitoring the election and vote counting, was attacked by armed security agents. They ransacked the center, destroyed computers, and attacked the staff. Supporters of Mr. Mousavi intervened and arrested 8 security agents. The police was called to take them to prison, but the police released the attackers.
According to Mr. Makhbalbaf, the central headquaters of Mr. Mousavis campaign was also surrounded by security forces, as was the Interior Ministry building. Then, new data began to be released by the Ministry, indicating that Mr. Ahmadinejad had won the elections decisively.
Mr. Makhbalbaf then declared that, I have been authorized by Mr. Mousavis campaign to officially declare that a political coup has taken place, in order to declare Mr. Ahmadinejad the victor.
In other developments, in an attempt to put an end to the scandal, the Supreme Leader issued a statement, congratulating Mr. Ahmadinejad for his victory. He also warned that he would punish anybody who disputed the results. The official site of Mr. Mousavi, صف*ه نخست - قلم نیوز - ستاد مهندس میر *سین موسوی has been filtered and is inaccessible in Iran. There are also reports that the homes of Mr. Karroubi and former president and powerful politician, Mr. Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who had written a letter to the Supreme Leader on Wednesday to warn him against irregularities, have been surrounded by security forces.
In its first official reaction to the election results, the United States declared that it has serious doubt about the accuracy of the election data. Fox News reported that a spokesman said that, Our analysts find the declared votes for Mr. Karroubi hard to believe, or that Mr. Mousavi received less votes in his hometown than Mr. Ahmadinejad.

Spokesman: Political Coup – tehranbureau
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The anatomy of a coup:
Quote:
On the basis of what we know so far, here is the sequence of events starting on the afternoon of election day, Friday, June 12.
Near closing time of the polls, mobile text messaging was turned off nationwide
Security forces poured out into the streets in large numbers
The Ministry of Interior (election headquarters) was surrounded by concrete barriers and armed men
National television began broadcasting pre-recorded messages calling for everyone to unite behind the winner
The Mousavi campaign was informed officially that they had won the election, which perhaps served to temporarily lull them into complacency
But then the Ministry of Interior announced a landslide victory for Ahmadinejad. Unlike previous elections, there was no breakdown of the vote by province, which would have provided a way of judging its credibility
The voting patterns announced by the government were identical in all parts of the country, an impossibility (also see the comments of Juan Cole at the title link)
Less than 24 hours later, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamene`i publicly announced his congratulations to the winner, apparently confirming that the process was complete and irrevocable, contrary to constitutional requirements
Shortly thereafter, all mobile phones, Facebook, and other social networks were blocked, as well as major foreign news sources.
All of this had the appearance of a well orchestrated strike intended to take its opponents by surprise – the classic definition of a coup. Curiously, this was not a coup of an outside group against the ruling elite; it was a coup of the ruling elite against its own people.
From: The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

Also, this is a very useful link to follow the election: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_215189.html
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Default 14th June 2009

From Angry Arab (Professor Asaad Abu Khalil of UCLA) :

Western Primer on elections in developing countries
Some Western principles in assessing elections in developing countries:
1) When the favored candidates win, the elections are free and fair. And when they lose, elections are certainly unfree and stolen.
2) Violent protests against elections that produce winners favored by the west, are to be strictly condemned and protesters are to be called terrorists, hooligans and mobs (can you imagine if Lebanese opposition supporters were to engage in violent protests against the election results in Lebanon), while violent protests against enemies of the US when they win elections (like in Moldova) are to be admired.
3) It is not against free elections to have Western governments interfere in elections and in funding candidates through Western groups for the promotion of democracy.
4) Candidates (or even dictators) who serve Western interests are automatically labeled as "reform candidates" (even the Saudi tyrant is referred to as "reform-minded"), while candidates who oppose Western economic and political interests are to be labeled enemies of reform.
5) Candidates who are not strident in their language about Israel are always favored.
6) Western observers of elections are always on hand to declare an election unfair and rigged if the favored candidates lose.
7) The corruption of pro-US candidates (like the March 14 bunch) is preferred to the non-corruption of, say, Mugabe.
8) The democratic credentials of dictators immediately improve if they change their policies toward the US and if they express willingness to serve US economic and political interests.
9) Countries where dictators do a good job in serving US economic and political interests need not hold elections.
10) If favored candidates can't guarantee electoral victory (like the PA tool, Abu Mazen whose term has expired months ago), they don't need to hold elections and will be treated as if they won an election anyway.
11) It is just not logical to assume that people in developing countries can freely ever decide to make choices that are not consistent with political and economic interests of the US.
12) Elections that are held under American and Israeli occupations are free and fair if the preferred candidates win.

The Angry Arab News Service/وكالة أنباء العربي الغاضب: Western Primer on elections in developing countries
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