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Default 20th June 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by LubnanALkawi View Post
eeehh did you say Robert Fisk? strange why he is the only journalist who got the opportunity to talk about what is happening in iran!

im not saying the people on the ground are working on getting rid of the Islamic regime but im sure they would love to see that happening and shouting Allah w akbar does not mean anything!! yes and this is my opinion because thats the idea i got from the Iranian people them self! when almost every Iranian in the diaspora tells you Khomayni is shaytan you start to think! when every Iranian knows im from Lebanon they tell you how much they hate this regime because it send money to Hezbollah and Hamas while many people in iran could benefit from those money when they tell you Palestine is not our cause its an Arab cause even some of them go far and talk in a bad way about Islam because they think Islam is equal to the brutal regime they got!

and yes this could be a good step for Iran and for the region as whole lets wait and see what the outcome would be!
i dont understand, are you trying to say tht Robert Fisk is lying? why should i believe iranians living outside iran who are biased, and not a neutral and highly respected journalist?
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Default 20th June 2009

Ahmadinejad Won. Get Over It

By FLYNT LEVERETT AND HILLARY MANN LEVERETT

June 16, 2009 "Politico" -- -
Without any evidence, many U.S. politicians and “Iran experts” have dismissed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s reelection Friday, with 62.6 percent of the vote, as fraud.

They ignore the fact that Ahmadinejad’s 62.6 percent of the vote in this year’s election is essentially the same as the 61.69 percent he received in the final count of the 2005 presidential election, when he trounced former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. The shock of the “Iran experts” over Friday’s results is entirely self-generated, based on their preferred assumptions and wishful thinking.

Although Iran’s elections are not free by Western standards, the Islamic Republic has a 30-year history of highly contested and competitive elections at the presidential, parliamentary and local levels. Manipulation has always been there, as it is in many other countries.

But upsets occur — as, most notably, with Mohammed Khatami’s surprise victory in the 1997 presidential election. Moreover, “blowouts” also occur — as in Khatami’s reelection in 2001, Ahmadinejad’s first victory in 2005 and, we would argue, this year.

Like much of the Western media, most American “Iran experts” overstated Mir Hossein Mousavi’s “surge” over the campaign’s final weeks. More important, they were oblivious — as in 2005 — to Ahmadinejad’s effectiveness as a populist politician and campaigner. American “Iran experts” missed how Ahmadinejad was perceived by most Iranians as having won the nationally televised debates with his three opponents — especially his debate with Mousavi.

Before the debates, both Mousavi and Ahmadinejad campaign aides indicated privately that they perceived a surge of support for Mousavi; after the debates, the same aides concluded that Ahmadinejad’s provocatively impressive performance and Mousavi’s desultory one had boosted the incumbent’s standing. Ahmadinejad’s charge that Mousavi was supported by Rafsanjani’s sons — widely perceived in Iranian society as corrupt figures — seemed to play well with voters.

Similarly, Ahmadinejad’s criticism that Mousavi’s reformist supporters, including Khatami, had been willing to suspend Iran’s uranium enrichment program and had won nothing from the West for doing so tapped into popular support for the program — and had the added advantage of being true.

More fundamentally, American “Iran experts” consistently underestimated Ahmadinejad’s base of support. Polling in Iran is notoriously difficult; most polls there are less than fully professional and, hence, produce results of questionable validity. But the one poll conducted before Friday’s election by a Western organization that was transparent about its methodology — a telephone poll carried out by the Washington-based Terror-Free Tomorrow from May 11 to 20 — found Ahmadinejad running 20 points ahead of Mousavi. This poll was conducted before the televised debates in which, as noted above, Ahmadinejad was perceived to have done well while Mousavi did poorly.

American “Iran experts” assumed that “disastrous” economic conditions in Iran would undermine Ahmadinejad’s reelection prospects. But the International Monetary Fund projects that Iran’s economy will actually grow modestly this year (when the economies of most Gulf Arab states are in recession). A significant number of Iranians — including the religiously pious, lower-income groups, civil servants and pensioners — appear to believe that Ahmadinejad’s policies have benefited them.

And, while many Iranians complain about inflation, the TFT poll found that most Iranian voters do not hold Ahmadinejad responsible. The “Iran experts” further argue that the high turnout on June 12 — 82 percent of the electorate — had to favor Mousavi. But this line of analysis reflects nothing more than assumptions.

Some “Iran experts” argue that Mousavi’s Azeri background and “Azeri accent” mean that he was guaranteed to win Iran’s Azeri-majority provinces; since Ahmadinejad did better than Mousavi in these areas, fraud is the only possible explanation.

But Ahmadinejad himself speaks Azeri quite fluently as a consequence of his eight years serving as a popular and successful official in two Azeri-majority provinces; during the campaign, he artfully quoted Azeri and Turkish poetry — in the original — in messages designed to appeal to Iran’s Azeri community. (And we should not forget that the supreme leader is Azeri.) The notion that Mousavi was somehow assured of victory in Azeri-majority provinces is simply not grounded in reality.

With regard to electoral irregularities, the specific criticisms made by Mousavi — such as running out of ballot paper in some precincts and not keeping polls open long enough (even though polls stayed open for at least three hours after the announced closing time) — could not, in themselves, have tipped the outcome so clearly in Ahmadinejad’s favor.

Moreover, these irregularities do not, in themselves, amount to electoral fraud even by American legal standards. And, compared with the U.S. presidential election in Florida in 2000, the flaws in Iran’s electoral process seem less significant.

In the wake of Friday’s election, some “Iran experts” — perhaps feeling burned by their misreading of contemporary political dynamics in the Islamic Republic — argue that we are witnessing a “conservative coup d’état,” aimed at a complete takeover of the Iranian state.

But one could more plausibly suggest that if a “coup” is being attempted, it has been mounted by the losers in Friday’s election. It was Mousavi, after all, who declared victory on Friday even before Iran’s polls closed. And three days before the election, Mousavi supporter Rafsanjani published a letter criticizing the leader’s failure to rein in Ahmadinejad’s resort to “such ugly and sin-infected phenomena as insults, lies and false allegations.” Many Iranians took this letter as an indication that the Mousavi camp was concerned their candidate had fallen behind in the campaign’s closing days.

In light of these developments, many politicians and “Iran experts” argue that the Obama administration cannot now engage the “illegitimate” Ahmadinejad regime. Certainly, the administration should not appear to be trying to “play” in the current controversy in Iran about the election. In this regard, President Barack Obama’s comments on Friday, a few hours before the polls closed in Iran, that “just as has been true in Lebanon, what can be true in Iran as well is that you’re seeing people looking at new possibilities” was extremely maladroit.

From Tehran’s perspective, this observation undercut the credibility of Obama’s acknowledgement, in his Cairo speech earlier this month, of U.S. complicity in overthrowing a democratically elected Iranian government and restoring the shah in 1953.

The Obama administration should vigorously rebut any argument against engaging Tehran following Friday’s vote. More broadly, Ahmadinejad’s victory may force Obama and his senior advisers to come to terms with the deficiencies and internal contradictions in their approach to Iran. Before the Iranian election, the Obama administration had fallen for the same illusion as many of its predecessors — the illusion that Iranian politics is primarily about personalities and finding the right personality to deal with. That is not how Iranian politics works.

The Islamic Republic is a system with multiple power centers; within that system, there is a strong and enduring consensus about core issues of national security and foreign policy, including Iran’s nuclear program and relations with the United States. Any of the four candidates in Friday’s election would have continued the nuclear program as Iran’s president; none would agree to its suspension.

Any of the four candidates would be interested in a diplomatic opening with the United States, but that opening would need to be comprehensive, respectful of Iran’s legitimate national security interests and regional importance, accepting of Iran’s right to develop and benefit from the full range of civil nuclear technology — including pursuit of the nuclear fuel cycle — and aimed at genuine rapprochement.

Such an approach would also, in our judgment, be manifestly in the interests of the United States and its allies throughout the Middle East. It is time for the Obama administration to get serious about pursuing this approach — with an Iranian administration headed by the reelected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Flynt Leverett directs The New America Foundation’s Iran Project and teaches international affairs at Pennsylvania State university. Hillary Mann Leverett is CEO of STRATEGA, a political risk consultancy. Both worked for many years on Middle East issues for the U.S. government, including as members of the National Security Council staff.

© 2009 Capitol News Company LLC
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Default 20th June 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by LubnanALkawi View Post
well Iran did have some social reforms after 2001 and life is much better from the 1980's so i don't see why from whats happening today that could lead to another good step

and no im not Anti-Islam my family are Muslims my friends are Muslims...
but yes politically im against Islam to the death and i don't see any problem with that

Yes, life is much better for Iranians since the 1980s because there is no longer a war with a WMD-armed, US-supplied Iraq going on. 1 million Iranians were killed in that war and the damage caused by it was horrific.

I am all for being against religion and governance, but you choose to focus only on Islam and cite it as the cause of all evil. Furthermore, my suspicions of your prejudice are compounded by the fact that you're most likely not a Muslim, nor born a Muslim.

Quote:
well im sure there are plenty of Iranian who support this brutal regime and force other people to live their way and im sure many iranian also 3am yetra7amou 3ala iyem the dictator Shah if people does not want change you would not see them out on the streets today forget about Mousavi and who he is im talking about the people and there is big difference!

there are 2 types of Iranian people and both sides are not small!
I see you've amended your views. That's nice. Next time, don't act like the people you talk to in the diaspora represent Iranians who live in Iran. Also, people are marching on the street in support of Mousawi, not to bring down the Ayatallah. There is an enormous difference.
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Quote:
Iranian football team shows support for Mousavi with green arm bands at Seoul World Cup qualifier

Several players on the Iranian national football team took advantage of a World Cup football qualifier in Seoul to denounce their government amid allegations of election rigging at home.





As many as eight players wore green wristbands and the captain, Ali Karimi, wore a green armband, symbolising support for Mir Hossein Mousavi, the opposition challenger, at the high-profile game, which was broadcast live on Iranian state television.



By the second half of the match, most of the players had removed the green bands.
I wonder what they were told at half-time.


Iranian football team shows support for Mousavi with green arm bands at Seoul World Cup qualifier - Telegraph
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Ahmadinejad caught Photoshopping support, the clear actions of a winnner:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebanesecanadian View Post
Ahmadinejad caught Photoshopping support, the clear actions of a winnner:
They are experts in this field, remember the missiles pic?
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Default 20th June 2009

Hey guys,

I have hundreds of friends in Iran, but don't have a lot of means to stay in touch with them...

Some of my Iranian friends are in the States, and they are able till now to post pictures and videos...

I will try to share them with you as much as possible...

Haven't read the whole thread, so might post pictures and videos already posted...

Thank you!!


P.S. Pls be aware that the videos contain a lot of violence and blood




And the most shocking ones...
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Icon6 20th June 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD06 View Post
i dont understand, are you trying to say tht Robert Fisk is lying? why should i believe iranians living outside iran who are biased, and not a neutral and highly respected journalist?
Robert Fisk is very well known to who he is biased and yes he is biased and he is not neutral and that's what makes him so famous! and probably thats why he is one of those few journalist who can be in iran if he is as you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zayn View Post
Yes, life is much better for Iranians since the 1980s because there is no longer a war with a WMD-armed, US-supplied Iraq going on. 1 million Iranians were killed in that war and the damage caused by it was horrific.

I am all for being against religion and governance, but you choose to focus only on Islam and cite it as the cause of all evil. Furthermore, my suspicions of your prejudice are compounded by the fact that you're most likely not a Muslim, nor born a Muslim.

I see you've amended your views. That's nice. Next time, don't act like the people you talk to in the diaspora represent Iranians who live in Iran. Also, people are marching on the street in support of Mousawi, not to bring down the Ayatallah. There is an enormous difference.
i was not talking about the Iraqi/irany war i was talking about the social life and the individual liberties and human rights etc

im not focusing on islam at all but this thread is about iran it is not about religion and politics in general! so how did you come to this conclusion no idea

im as Lebanese would benefit a lot from regime change to an secular one in Iran or Saudi Arabia but of course we are far from it..l.. and im born to an Muslim family i dont know why this turned into personal thing anyway you are very wrong about me and being politically against Islamic politics does not mean i hate islam! bil nihiyeh ana rbit bi bi2a eslemiyeh!


and my views are still the same regarding this mater i never said that all iranian are so and so but im sure there are plenty of people in iran it self who are against this brutal regime and only time will say what all this will lead to maybe nothing at all will change and maybe a lot of things will change we will see if the people will listen to Aytallah radiya lah 3anh and stop going out on the streets!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LubnanALkawi View Post
Robert Fisk is very well known to who he is biased and yes he is biased and he is not neutral and that's what makes him so famous! and probably thats why he is one of those few journalist who can be in iran if he is as you said



i was not talking about the Iraqi/irany war i was talking about the social life and the individual liberties and human rights etc

im not focusing on islam at all but this thread is about iran it is not about religion and politics in general! so how did you come to this conclusion no idea

im as Lebanese would benefit a lot from regime change to an secular one in Iran or Saudi Arabia but of course we are far from it..l.. and im born to an Muslim family i dont know why this turned into personal thing anyway you are very wrong about me and being politically against Islamic politics does not mean i hate islam! bil nihiyeh ana rbit bi bi2a eslemiyeh!


and my views are still the same regarding this mater i never said that all iranian are so and so but im sure there are plenty of people in iran it self who are against this brutal regime and only time will say what all this will lead to maybe nothing at all will change and maybe a lot of things will change we will see if the people will listen to Aytallah radiya lah 3anh and stop going out on the streets!

the thing is we wer not talking about the people who are against the regime we wer talking about the protesters! u wer saying tht the protesters want to get rid of the islamic regime and i was telling u tht it was not true...obviously thr are people who do want to get rid of tht regime(e.g communists, other secular parties) but thy wer not the ones protesting, the ones who wer protesting wer muslims who wer tired of one leader and wanted to replace him with another muslim, thts it, y are u bringing up iranians who live outside iran?, we r not talkin about them. e.g if hezballah did a protest saying thy want to get rid of hassan nasrallah and replace him with another Sayyed, you would go to the protesters and get info about the subject, not to lebanese living in australia who probably hate hezballah
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Default 20th June 2009

i love how some people are now at the end of the cliff and are grabbing at straws re: doctored pics and what not . same for the failed attempt at belittling Iran's missile capabilities.

maybe this is a doctored video too :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBxhMpt8mp0

maybe these are "doctored" crowds too:

http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/newsdetai...?NewsID=899012
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/newsdetai...?NewsID=898940
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/newsdetai...?NewsID=899021
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/newsdetai...?NewsID=898991
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/newsdetai...?NewsID=898937

or maybe they were all "imported" from Lebanon and the only one supportive of the Islamic system are Imam Khamenei and Pres. Ahmadinejad.....
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