The Hypocrisy of Left-Wing Pan-Arab Ideology

[Stella]

Well I dont know much about it, so I would be curious, that is there today still a considerable Pan-arabism movement? Like it was during the cold war era? Is the concept of pan-arabism still relevant, and makes any sense?
It isnt really clear for me as well, why the pan-arabism should be associated with left-wing policy? Especially talking in the frame of the present context, and not the cold-war era concept.

Regarding hypocrisy in general by the arab world toward the west, I agree, you are right Haruun about it.

Originally Posted by Haruun

..I would consider myself at times more left than right but ideally, I’m certainly a centrist.

I dont believe in the idea of "centrist" by the way. For me its very illusionary. You have to stand/choose a side, theres no middle way in politics I guess.

[GeaGea SkyWalkeR]

Originally Posted by Renegade

the left are left behind with obsolete ideologies
globalisation shifted the spectrum clearly towards what was previously called the right
and all the EX-left wing are becoming "centrist" (shy to say they are liberals)

Correct me if im wrong but what about china, its a communist country wich makes it ultra leftist right, and if anything is taking over the whole word with its economy , If you ask me it makes the west look like they are left behind,

[Renegade]

Left wing ideology is still only present in their violation of human rights and personal liberties....
China's economy is ultra-liberal and much more deregulated than western economies. You don't have to worry about polution nor workers rights...just bring your money and we produce... heheee
nothing left from the left .... capitalsim is taking over everywhere

[Big_Brother]

Originally Posted by Renegade

nothing left from the left .... capitalsim is taking over everywhere

What about South America ?
The whole continent is ELECTING left wing presidents and parliaments.
You know why ? because globalization and capitalism has brought their people nothing but extreme poverty, while transfering all their ressources to multinational companies.
The policies that were imposed on them by the IMF and the world bank caused disasters.
(and they are still prescribing to us in lebanon the same policies).
They tell you : "Privatize everything, open all your markets, minimal state intervention, ..."
We know that these policies do not work.
If they did, the USA would implement them at home.
Instead, they give huge subsides to agriculture, and close their markets for developing world products, the federal reserve intervenes in the economy by setting their interest rates while taking employment levels and growth into account (not only inflation as the european central bank does, or like the policies the IMF and WB try to impose on developing countries) .

[Renegade]

It's a long story my friend big-bro
the chinese boom brought recession to these south american countries
with backward leftist ideologies we will reach nowhere we will have cuba style country
what about the EU - PAC ? or you only see the US?
all the boudaries are fading people are coming together and you are talking about protectionism and the role of the state....
it's always hard to convince everybody.... but keep in mind that left is not right

[Big_Brother]

Originally Posted by Renegade

It's a long story my friend big-bro
the chinese boom brought recession to these south american countries
with backward leftist ideologies we will reach nowhere we will have cuba style country
what about the EU - PAC ? or you only see the US?
all the boudaries are fading people are coming together and you are talking about protectionism and the role of the state....
it's always hard to convince everybody.... but keep in mind that left is not right

Funny, you say that all the boundaries are fading and you give another example of boundaries still holing on.
I did not forget about PAC, but I believe that 1 example was enough. Thanks for giving another one.

Renegade my friend, you will not get away easily with an affirmation like " the chinese boom brought recession to these south american countries".
Supposing that was the case, do you find it normal that a growth in china will starve a whole continent without interventions from the state ?
Do you accept to let those who control the capital in Wall Street to decide who can eat and who can not eat ?

protectionism and the role of the state. You said it all. Yes there is a role that the state should play. The state should protect its citizens by persuing social justice, or else, you will witness a lot of revolutions in the coming years.

I don't want to defend Castro, but at least, Cubans are not dying of hunger, and even have social security and medical coverage, despite the economic siege that the USA is imposing on them.
They even have advanced medical labs and produce drugs (adwiye, mich moukhaddarat) and make them cheaply available for all the population, tey are even exporting at cheap prices.

Before you call me a backwards leftist, I'd like to point you to read the recent books of Joseph Stiglitz (ex vice president of World Bank and president of Clinton's Council of Economic Advisors).
I'm sure you'll see things from a new perspective.

[WiseCookie]

I believe that Haruun is talking about the pan-arab leftists that are currently representing their parties now. Such as the SSNP and Baath and PSP and the Communist Party, and even what use to be the PLO. They were all left-wingers and pan-arab dedicated to fighting a war in Lebanon, and therefore tarnished whatever was good in that ideology which leads to generalizations such as those. But in fact those good pan-arabs and leftists are currently not much represented by any party at the moment.

[Free_Patriot]

I found it a little bit uncomfortable for me to read about “Arab hypocrisy”, “Pan-Arab Leftist hypocrisy”, “Arab Migrants to the West Hypocrisy” all mixed together in one cocktail of hypocrisy. It’s just too much hypocrisy for me!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Here we go:
Arab Hypocrisy: Double policies, lies and deception, smiley faces covering hatred, etc…
Pan-Arab Leftist Hypocrisy: Promising freedom as if freedom comes and only comes when Israel is crushed, along with freedom and human rights.
Arab Migrant Hypocrisy: Lining up for visas, marrying western citizens for green cards, and cursing the west and teaching their children to hate it in the same time.
<o:p></o:p>
Is that all news to you? Should that sad reality cover the other sad reality about Western arrogance and intimidations?
<o:p></o:p>
Here we go:
The United States continuously supported Israel in an open conflict against the Arabs and in the same time wants the Arabs to welcome its policies in the region. The United States cut deals with the Arab dictatorships on the expense of Human Rights and personal freedoms such as surrendering Lebanon to Assad on October 13, 1990.
<o:p></o:p>
My question is, how far are we willing to go in our self-criticism? Do we have to completely crush ourselves and submit to our miserable fate and blame ourselves for the rest of our lives and the lives of the generations to come?

[Free_Patriot]

Originally Posted by Stella23

Well I dont know much about it, so I would be curious, that is there today still a considerable Pan-arabism movement? Like it was during the cold war era? Is the concept of pan-arabism still relevant, and makes any sense?
It isnt really clear for me as well, why the pan-arabism should be associated with left-wing policy? Especially talking in the frame of the present context, and not the cold-war era concept.

Regarding hypocrisy in general by the arab world toward the west, I agree, you are right Haruun about it.



I dont believe in the idea of "centrist" by the way. For me its very illusionary. You have to stand/choose a side, theres no middle way in politics I guess.

The concept of pan-arabism is always relevant as long as there are still people who believe in arab unity and that the whole arab world is one people that should live in harmony in one nation. That concept was very strong in the 1960s and was affiliated with Left-wing ideas since the leadership of Gamal Abdel-Nasser because Nasser believed in socialism and he was backed by the USSR

Today Pan-arabism is getting weaker in front of the Islamic ideologies that consider religion as the main power of unity and dignity of all arabs and all muslims. Leftist ideas are no longer as popular in the arab world as they used to be, especially when Islamic ideas often contradict secular, socialist, and of course communist ideas. Moreover, Islamic ideologies is regarding as more preserving anti-US/Israel "nationalistic" feelings than Leftist ideologies in the Arab world today. Finally, leftists ideas are seen as the ideas of the existing corrupt Arab governments that are very unpopular.


About being centrist, while you might not personally believe in it, many would argue that centrist ideas are the most pragmatic and realistic especially because they appeal to the biggest number of citizens.

[Renegade]

big bro u live in france
just tell us what the french protectionist policy is bringing to french people 11% chomage and across the channel the uk unemployment is at 4%
you have the highest electricity and gas price in europe due to lack of competition ... free market means competition between firms and therefore cheaper prices for consumer... taking into consideration there is a proper anti-trust regulations of course
you are confusing between market economy and monopoly dominance
the role of the state is to be a regulator and not an actor in the economy
because my friend countries nowadays live on foreign investments
once the state impose restrictive rules you loose these investments that are becoming easy to relocate somewhere cheaper
social justice is a very fluffy concept ... what's the criterias to achieve this justice ?? vague concept
I'm not calling you a backward leftisit but take a look at the GDP growth of the US and UK versus the more left-leaning continental europe (france and germany) and you will see that once u impose high taxes and interventionist policies investments will easily relocate to somewhere else