how accurate is the number 6,000,000?

[Xguy]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

First, word you used was 'restoration', no 'alteration'. Do not try to weasel out now.

Second, regardless of semantics game serious researcher would've tried to compare restored/altered version with original before drawing solid conclusion. So, how different restored version is from original?




Why do you like 'thousands' more than 'hundreds' or 'millions'?
Is it because 'hundreds' would've made cans so big they would've not fit into a pipe or 'millions' would made cans so small they would be impossible to see and handle?
Please, re-read that post of your again and unless you are telling me you were trying to make a joke I am no longer interested in conversing with you.

You know I speak fluently three languages, and two more partially and I tried my hardest using all 5 to try to understand WTH you are talking about and I failed, the only thing I undesrtsood which is great news to me , is that my conversation with you is over.

[Xguy]

Here's a little more on the Zyclone-B and the shower head (fake ones) from the horses mouth now bare in mind that This is a book written by jean-claude pressac, a Holocaust supporter .
from page 15 of the book

In the years 1960-70, when certain bodies were requested to furnish proof of the existence of homicidal gas chambers, they responded by sending a photograph [Photo 1] or [Photo 2] if their documentation was more complete. These "proofs" were supposed to suffice, but now they are no longer valid. At the Liberation there was a relative lack of knowledge about the toxic products used in the homicidal gas chambers and total confusion about their respective methods of use. Ignorance and confusion were fueled by the publication after the war of books such as Camps de concentration! Konzentrationslager by Eugène Aroneau [Office Français d'Edition 1946; Arbeitsgemeinschaft Das Licht, undated in German], which can now be considered a historical monstrosity. Instead of presenting for each camp the testimony relevant to it, and this in chronological order, accounts from different sources were split up and regrouped according to a given topic: "extermination", "selection in the camp", "selection on arrival", "gassing and cremation", etc., a method producing an incoherent and self-contradictory whole.

Through ignorance the operation of the homicidal gas chambers rested on material impossibilities, understandable at the end of the war but which were but rarely corrected afterwards. In Maïdanek, un camp d'extermination [Editions Sociales, Paris 1945] the writer, the Soviet journalist Constantin Simonof, reports that Zyklon-B "crystals" were introduced into the homicidal gas chambers through metal tubes of 2 or 3 cm diameter [running parallel to the ground!] , tubes which, in fact, were used to diffuse carbon monoxide coming from metal cylinders outside. I found this impossible association in the Investigation Section of the Warsaw Central Commission. I saw there a photocopy of a French newspaper article illustrated by a can of Zyklon-B surrounded by its "crystals" [Photo 1] PASTED DIRECTLY NEXT TO the funnel used for pouring a liquid found at the Natzweiler [Photo 3]

The relative confusion about the method of using the toxic product in the gas chambers was aggravated by the fact that the SS Bauleitung often grouped in the same building two completely different sanitary functions: showers and incineration furnaces (for example in the Natzweiler camp in France). This proximity brought about a forced association. While in many homicidal gas chambers the showerheads were dummy, there were many testimonies that asserted that the toxic gas was diffused by them. Confusion reinforced by the fact that Zyklon-B was, above all, the regulation pest control agent used by the Wehrmacht, used to delouse effects and combat insects and rodents in premises. During the trials that were held after the war, the tons of Zyklon-B ordered by the camps were attributed to homicidal use without any verification. By far the greater part (over 95 percent) was destined for delousing (effects and buildings) while only a very small part (less than 5 percent) had been used for homicidal gassings.

MY thoughts, what does the above prove?

well first of all it proves that I was right about the cans been droped rather then plumbed thru pipes as some ignorant people claim still, because they missed the train of the revising and rationalization of the story.
two, only 5% of those cans shown in pictures now are claimed to be used for homocidal purposes, hmmm let me see funny how the numbers keep changing first all these cans were used to gas jews, now when someone pops and show claims of the lice epidamics oh ok let's revise the story and claim 95% were used for discinfection and 5% for homocide.
and last but not least , this whole book shows the method of the jews persuing this issue and keep changing the story everytime some valid discedit of their story pops somewhere, similar to the story of the shrunken heads and the human skin lamp shades which were retracted later as well.

BTW the link I gave to Freebetarian to watch the video , unfortunatly he was blocked from accessing the website, it says something about racism and hate, I will let him explain what happen,

there are many good investigative videos as well as a good interview of some Holocaust supporter on phil donahue, I know I know phil donahue, but oh well he sure does represent the average drugged american who beleives anything on TV so watching his argument and proofs of the holocaust was, apart from being comic, the best argument against the holocaust.

Another good argument against the holocaust is the eyes witnesses testemonies, it amazes me how many people survived those camps just to come and tell that everyone in those camps dies? how is that possible, well if you were there and you saw them gassing people why did they spare you ? what's so special about you and the thousands of spared liars who tell the same thing? huh?

like one woman on Donahu was brought obviously for propaganda, she really blew it when she was screaming " I saw them them making them into soap in my own eyes" while the holocaust supporter Michael Shermer (professor of history bla bla) were trying to shut here up pretty explaining to her the the soap story is retracted (ie never happened) and it was a mistake by historians but not a lie, so the guy is saying the soap and the lamp shades were a mistake that were corrected later and this eyes witness is screaming of the top of her lungs I've seen it happen lol yea it was funny.
No wonder the legal system invented the term "hearsay" yet 95% of the worlds population (and god I hope that number is wrong) beleives a story based mostly on hearsay

And last but not last the best of eye witness story we have that duped Opera winfrey of the love story of Herman Rosenblat, quote:" Rosenblat's tale of a little girl throwing apples over a barbed-wire fence to him every day at a sub-camp of Buchenwald in the 1940s was endearing" , and it made Opera cry on TV along with many (drugged american) only to find out that this guy was writing a fictional book.

and worst of all is we have another "schindlers list" in the making quote :"A planned feature film about Rosenblat's story still is scheduled to begin production this year, with producer Harris Salomon saying the script may note the "fabricated elements of their wartime love story." So you're still gonna propagate a lie , but you will fine print that the love story has "fabricated elements"???

Jesus H christ when will they ever quit please someone tell me when????

[Frisbeetarian]

No, I did not. To me there is no denial Holocaust existed. If I were to make my profession refuting denyers then perhaps. As of today it would be waste of my time. There are great many people who would do much better job than I would. It is good enough for me to know that my mother-in-law's family was murdered in Minsk ghetto in Feb of 1943 along with tens of thousands of other Jews, and all in one day. That many people probably did not die in 60 years of Arab-Israeli conflict.

Hmmm, why did you point out that not as many arabs died during 60 years of conflict? Are you trying to underminde their deaths in contrast to the Holocaust?

Sure, i know that your not a Holocaust denier. But it certainly pays to investigate your opponents views and arguments, you know, less you be seen as dogmatic and arrogant.

I do not have a link. But if you are still genuinely interested I am sure you can find it easily.

Since you brought it up, and have spoken with detail, im going to have to ask you for the source of these details.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by kappa273

we are fortunate to have many jewish members or pro-jewish members. my question is:
-how accurate is the number of more than 6 millions?

Not jews alone, but all the victims including various ethnicities and political prisonners...visit Auschwitz if you can, to have a clearer picture...

[taifoon]

During the Rwandan genocide in 1994 it is believed that between 800.000 and 1 million tutsis were killed under a period of only 100 days. I have no means to either deny, doubt or conform that.

A man inflicted death toll this magnitude and in so short period of time is so mind blowing it can not be easily apprehended by common sense. One would think that only an all out war between ants is able to achieve such huge elimination of members of the species in so short period of time.

If circa 1 million people were killed by a bunch of loose and poorly organized militia in only 100 days, is it or is it not possible that the same can be done to 6 times the amount of tutsi victims in jews, by an extremely determined and well organized state led war machinery and during 1600 days? I believe it is. But that's a different question.

For between what is possible and what is, lies a whole series of missing links that are yet to be found and put in place, in order for the true picture to emerge. Probably this will never happen ever, because those missing links, the full set of pieces that can help redraw what exactly took place where and how many, is lost or dispersed on purpose.

Fragments of evidences, sometimes different sometimes identical, are presented everywhere, through documents, films, at museums, in historical archives etc, but no one will ever be able to either confirm or deny the 6 million jews figure. This could be due to the nature of such horrible war per se, or could be made on purpose, to serve another purpose.

What is evident however is the fact that 6 million dead jews, real or fictive, is what finally gave the living jews a land. I guess, for the political higher cause, one million, 2 millions or any other "million" figure would have worked well; now they happened to settle on this specific number.. The political dimension of the issue is therefore tightly connected to the number's, and up till today's date the smart Israelis are still able to milk blood, tears and of course a lot of money out of this tragedy, because a tragedy it is nonetheless, irrespective of the poor victims number being a million, 2 or 6.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

Hmmm, why did you point out that not as many arabs died during 60 years of conflict? Are you trying to underminde their deaths in contrast to the Holocaust?

I do not believe I have. It would appear by concentrating only on Arab death you are the one trying to belittle Jewish death.

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

Sure, i know that your not a Holocaust denier. But it certainly pays to investigate your opponents views and arguments, you know, less you be seen as dogmatic and arrogant.

Actually, I already said there is no doubt for me Holocaust is the fact.
I cannot possibly see how my attempt to disprove it will help me.
Holocaust denial is fairly recent phenomenon and it is nothing else but politically motivated or motivated by hate.

Interestingly enough it does not stop some people from trying to deny Holocaust while at the same time running around and yelling 'How bad it is that Hitler did not finish the job!!!'. I find it pathetic and hilarious at the same time.

[Frisbeetarian]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

I do not believe I have.

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

No, I did not. To me there is no denial Holocaust existed. If I were to make my profession refuting denyers then perhaps. As of today it would be waste of my time. There are great many people who would do much better job than I would. It is good enough for me to know that my mother-in-law's family was murdered in Minsk ghetto in Feb of 1943 along with tens of thousands of other Jews, and all in one day. That many people probably did not die in 60 years of Arab-Israeli conflict.

It would appear by concentrating only on Arab death you are the one trying to belittle Jewish death.

I didnt even mention Arab deaths in this thread, you did.

Actually, I already said there is no doubt for me Holocaust is the fact.
I cannot possibly see how my attempt to disprove it will help me.

I repeat. I am not asking you to disprove, just to take a look at what the other camp is saying and trying to prove.

Holocaust denial is fairly recent phenomenon and it is nothing else but politically motivated or motivated by hate.

Holocaust denial is a fairly recent phenomenon? I hate to break it to you but it certainly is not.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

kappa273 and Frisbeetarian,

Speaking of archeology here is something I run in to today:

Originally Posted by http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1235410694625&pagename=JPost%2FJPArt icle%2FShowFull

...
A routine archeological excavation ahead of private construction in an Arab neighborhood on the outskirts of Jerusalem has uncovered a series of seal impressions from the reign of the biblical King Hezekiah 2,700 years ago, the Israel Antiquities Authority announced Monday.
...

You can read the rest at the link I provided above.

Like I said before archeological evidence is aplenty. One cannot spit not hitting it.

[Robin Hood]

Personaly, I think we should deal with history intelligently, we should neither deny a fact becuz we don't like it's consequences, nor fellow blindly was is written in the history book as if they were Scruptures. I believe that the Holocaust happens, but it's most probable that the number of victims were inflated. We can't know, maybe there were 3 or 4 million killed, but that doesn't mean that we should downplay the atrocities committed by the Nazis.

[ArabJew]

I am not really interested in joining this discussion, but for the most part, the western world tends to agree on the number, the arab and muslim world tends to disagree with the number, and the rest probably don't care much about it.

you may want to read the site Holocaust Educational Resource, which tries to put itself to the task of debunking critics/deniers, considered a controversial move because it supposedly gives them more than their due weight (e.g. none, after so much evidence has been collected).

if you really care (not sure why, though), you would also be prudent to read yad vashem's site.