History of the palestinian-israeli conflict

[zoomzoom]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Rizla,

Welcome and thank you for your replay.

Just to clarify. It is being stipulated by my distinguished opponent that Jews and Arabs were soul mates before introduction of Zionism to the region, so if you permit I will remove later dates from your list just to make it look more to the point:

Morocco: 1728, 1790, 1875, 1884, 1890
Algeria: 1805
Tunisia:1864, 1869
Persia: 1839, 1867
Iraq: 1828
Libya: 1785, 1860, 1897
Egypt:1882
Palestine: 1834(Tsfat; added by yours truly)
Syria: 1840

Bare in mind, ladies and gentlemen, that this is only what was recorded and those are only violent events.
Day-to-day oppression and humiliation of Jews by Arabs and Muslims is not being shown here.

Bottom line, there was never good relation between the two. Let's not try to put lipstick on historical pig, shell we.

In Iraq and Syria and it could be in most Arabic Countries, the zionist movements was caught in blown up Jewish places to scare the Jews in leaving their mother land to come to Palestine. Most Iraqi Jews didn't want to leave Iraq but it is documented that the zionist movement to achieve its goal, planted bombs in community and religious places to scare the Jews and make them flee to Palestine. Two zionists were caught in Iraq in planted the bombs between 1947-1948 with the purpose of terrifying the Jews to leave Iraq. Since the zionists movement is well documented in their cooperation with the Nazis, it does not surprise me if they did the same in other Arab countries.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by zoomzoom

In Iraq and Syria and it could be in most Arabic Countries, the zionist movements was caught in blown up Jewish places to scare the Jews in leaving their mother land to come to Palestine. Most Iraqi Jews didn't want to leave Iraq but it is documented that the zionist movement to achieve its goal, planted bombs in community and religious places to scare the Jews and make them flee to Palestine. Two zionists were caught in Iraq in planted the bombs between 1947-1948 with the purpose of terrifying the Jews to leave Iraq. Since the zionists movement is well documented in their cooperation with the Nazis, it does not surprise me if they did the same in other Arab countries.

It is very nice story and even if we allow to agree that it is true, it does not apply here. Period we are referring to is pre-Zionist.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Speaking of Muslim anti-Semitism, here we go:



I just cannot understand what does it represent this time around.

Whether they are thanking Hitler for murdering Jews they love so dearly or they are thanking Hitler for encouraging and speeding up advent of Zionism.

It looks like these people cannot even grasp the irony of their statement.

[Frisbeetarian]

Sam Harris:

While Harris criticizes all religions, he argues that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilization.[14] Harris criticizes the general response in the West to terrorist atrocities such as the 9/11 attacks, i.e. the response of pronouncing Islam a "religion of peace" while simultaneously declaring a "war on 'terrorism'." Harris sees the first sentiment as demonstrably false, and the second as meaningless.[7]p.31, p.28

Instead, he demands the acknowledgment that Western civilization is at war with Islam, which, he maintains, preaches a doctrine of religious and political subjugation, not a message of peace. He observes that the Koran and the hadith contain incitements to kill infidels and reward such actions with Paradise (including 72 virgins). Harris considers jihad, which he calls "metaphysics of martyrdom", as taking the "sting out of death" and a source of peril. He rejects arguments that suggest such behavior is a result of extremist Muslims, not mainstream ones. He argues that the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy erupted not because the cartoons were derogatory but because "most Muslims believe that it is a sacrilege to depict Muhammad at all."[15] Harris maintains that the West is at war with "precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran, and further elaborated in the literature of the hadith."[7]p.109-110

[TripolySunni]

Great, But Still the Wall you build is Illegal, the Settlements Are Illegal as per 4th Geneva Conventon, east Jerusalem is Still Occupied Palestinian territory Per "World Supreme court", and Still you Guys are Massacring Palestinians and using weapons of mass-destruction to kill as many as possible.

The Chinese government has killed more than 35+ million muslims of the Uyghur, What Should we do about that? Go and occupy a land which isn't ours? Russia Has Killed more than 700,000 Checheniyan Muslims (out of 1.5 million) Should we go and occupy any country that used to belong to the USSR presviously?

[TripolySunni]

Then you'll get another Japanese protest with people saying "GOD BLESS NOBUNAGA ODA".

[Republican]

Originally Posted by Rizla

The term "anti-Semite" was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marrih to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 "Anti-Semitism" has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: "Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews" and "Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination."2

The claim that Arabs as "Semites" cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.



Organized massacres and pogroms:

Morocco: 1728, 1790, 1875, 1884, 1890, 1903, 1912, 1948, 1952, 1955
Algeria: 1805, 1934
Tunisia:1864, 1869, 1932, 1967
Persia: 1839, 1867, 1910
Iraq: 1828, 1936, 1937, 1941, 1946, 1948, 1967, 1969
Libya: 1785, 1860, 1897, 1945, 1948, 1967
Egypt:1882, 1919, 1921, 1924, 1938-39, 1945, 1948, 1956, 1967
Yemen: 1947
Palestine: 1929, 1936
Syria: 1840, 1945, 1948, 1949, 1967

Source: "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris

heh,

Sam Harris! :)))))

I will dissect your Sam Harris' and his beloved Bernard Lewis' "objective" approach about Islam later on.
Needless to say, I was reading "The End of Faith" and this Atheist born of a Jewish Mother(who still, after considering himself an Atheist, celebrate Christmas) is basing his entire view on Islam on three main sources:

-Bernard Lewis (A Jewish born English-American).
-Bits and pieces from the holy Qur'an, taken completely out of context, and sometimes even mistranslated (not to mention that simple translation of the Qur'an doesn't do you good, Qur'an is a symbolic book, words and verses hold hidden meanings, and thus get different interpretations from different Ulama).
-The Muslims Hadith (Conversations) of the Prophet Mohammad (which I've been having troubles getting the sources from which he quotes, to be able to judge to whether it's a Hadith Sahih/Motafaq or an incorrect and weak one).

None the less, come on, you could have done better than this)

[Republican]

I've done reading a 300 pages book of hatred, deception and misguidance.

That is my 3 words resume of this book, apart from spreading hatred, and inciting on the "elimination" of Islam, Harris is an expert at distorting, misrepresenting and twisting verses of the Qur'an, as well as concealing/disregarding historical facts, as well as covering up for his beloved Zionists (Which he thinks is just an imaginary conspiracy theory in the mind of some fanatical Muslims and Orthodox Christians).

I will prove my claims from his book, you can go back to the original text, to check the validity of my claims.



Deception



I will quote him from Chapter 4 of his book, about "demonic" verses in the Qur'an, I have selected a sample, there are 5 pages in this chapter where he is quoting verses, so If I need to discredit him thoroughly it will take me to write a book )))

False

"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the
hereafter" (2:114)

True

"Who are more evil than those who boycott GOD's masjids, where His name is commemorated, and contribute to their desertion? These ought not to enter therein except fearfully. They will suffer in this life humiliation, and will suffer in the Hereafter a terrible retribution."


False

They will be "rewarded
with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the
Day of Resurrection" (2:85)

Please note this verse is not addressed to the unbelievers, it is addressed to Muslims, and as a historical note, this verse was read at the beginning of a speech by Ibn Massoud to ahl Al-Koufa, when he got the word of banishment of Abu-Zarr from the Arab Peninsula.


True

"Yet, here you are killing each other, and evicting some of you from their homes, banding against them sinfully and maliciously. Even when they surrendered, you demanded ransom from them. Evicting them was prohibited for you in the first place. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this, except humiliation in this life, and a far worse retribution on the Day of Resurrection? GOD is never unaware of anything you do."

False

"[i]Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the
places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.
. . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers
be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful.
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion
reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evildoers"(21190-93)

True

Note how he twisted these verses, and even removed some verses that didn't suit his interests

"You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers. If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors."




Misguidance




I will quote him from his book, and show how misleading and deceptive he is while "trying to objectively" analyze the current situation of religions and faiths.

Also from beginning to end, he is on a mission to attack Islam, and demonizing Islam and dehumanizing Muslims. I will comment in bold on some of his interpretations of Islam.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Given the vicissitudes of Muslim history, however, I suspect that
the starting point I have chosen for this book—that of a single suicide
bomber following the consequences of his religious beliefs—is
bound to exasperate many readers, since it ignores most of what
commentators on the Middle East have said about the roots of Muslim
violence. It ignores the painful history of the Israeli occupation
of the West Bank and Gaza. It ignores the collusion of Western powers
with corrupt dictatorships. It ignores the endemic poverty and
lack of economic opportunity that now plague the Arab world. But I
will argue that we can ignore all of these things—or treat them only
to place them safely on the shelf—because the world is filled with
poor, uneducated, and exploited peoples who do not commit acts of
terrorism, indeed who would never commit terrorism of the sort
that has become so commonplace among Muslims" (Harris 109)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Give me a break!
By the way, throughout the book he never addressed the Israeli occupation of Palestine, nor the massacres committed by israel against Muslims and arabs for decades.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Islam, more than any other religion human beings have devised,
has all the makings of a thoroughgoing cult of death." (Harris 123)

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? ...
In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us."(Harris 129)

"the evil that has finally reached our shores is not merely the evil
of terrorism. It is the evil of religious faith at the moment of its political
ascendancy. Of course, Islam is not uniquely susceptible to undergoing
such horrible transformations, though it is, at this moment in history, uniquely ascendant. Western leaders who insist that our conflict is not with Islam are mistaken" (Harris 130-131)

"Unless Muslims can reshape their religion into an ideology that is basically benign—or outgrow it altogether—it is difficult to see how Islam and the West can avoid falling into a continual state of war, and on innumerable fronts." (Harris 152)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So my dear Muslims, what the "enlightened" Sam Harris is trying to show you is that the only way for you to be accepted in this world, is that you all become Atheists, or even better, convert to Buddhism and live a Sufi life style, at the temples, praying to the Gods in peace and hoping that one day you will reach a "Nirvana", a "Nirvana" that you don't even know where it is.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If oil were to become worthless, the dysfunction of the most prominent
Muslim societies would suddenly grow as conspicuous as the sun.
Muslims might then come to see the wisdom of moderating their thinking on a wide variety of subjects. Otherwise, we will be obliged to protect our interests in the world with force—continually."(Harris 152)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No need to comment, this statement is the essence of Mr. Sam Harris view of the world.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There were, no doubt, innumerable instances in which European
Christians risked their lives to protect the Jews in their midst, and did so because of their Christianity."(Harris 106)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mr. Sam Harris argues that although it is true, that Europe is the one who committed the holocaust, it is true that Europe is the one who discriminated Jews, but they are not as evil as the bad bad Muslims! They are not as bad as those Palestinians terrorists, with their Fiery Hellish stones!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Jewish settlers, by exercising their "freedom of belief" on contested land, are now one of the principal obstacles to peace in the Middle East. They will be a direct cause of war between Islam and the West should one ever erupt over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."(Harris 94)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Uh now I get it!
So all this struggle in the middle east is just a little dispute that can happen even between two brothers, no need to take it personal, why you bad Muslims are oppressing the Zionist settlers? Why are you denying them their freedom of belief?
So, they snatched Palestine, so what?
They banished 2 millions+ people, so what?
They killed your men and women, young and old, so what?
What's the big deal people? You should be more open minded about these kind of issues.



And Finally the icing on the cake:



"The excesses of Palestinian suicide bombers, therefore, must attest to the excesses of the Israeli occupation. Berman points out that this sort of thinking has led the Israelis to be frequently likened to the Nazis in the European press. Needless to say, the comparison is grotesque. The truth is, as Dershowitz points out, that "no other nation in history faced with
comparable challenges has ever adhered to a higher standard of
human rights, been more sensitive to the safety of innocent civilians,
tried harder to operate under the rule of law, or been willing to
take more risks for peace. The Israelis have shown a degree of
restraint in their use of violence that the Nazis never contemplated
and that, more to the point, no Muslim society would contemplate
today. Ask yourself, what are the chances that the Palestinians would show the same restraint in killing Jews if the Jews were a powerless
minority living under their occupation and disposed to acts of suicidal terrorism? It would be no more likely than Muhammad's flying to heaven on a winged horse." (Harris 135)



Enough said!
Restraint people, restraint!



I rest my case.

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian

Sam Harris:

While Harris criticizes all religions, he argues that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilization.[14] Harris criticizes the general response in the West to terrorist atrocities such as the 9/11 attacks, i.e. the response of pronouncing Islam a "religion of peace" while simultaneously declaring a "war on 'terrorism'." Harris sees the first sentiment as demonstrably false, and the second as meaningless.[7]p.31, p.28

Instead, he demands the acknowledgment that Western civilization is at war with Islam, which, he maintains, preaches a doctrine of religious and political subjugation, not a message of peace. He observes that the Koran and the hadith contain incitements to kill infidels and reward such actions with Paradise (including 72 virgins). Harris considers jihad, which he calls "metaphysics of martyrdom", as taking the "sting out of death" and a source of peril. He rejects arguments that suggest such behavior is a result of extremist Muslims, not mainstream ones. He argues that the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy erupted not because the cartoons were derogatory but because "most Muslims believe that it is a sacrilege to depict Muhammad at all."[15] Harris maintains that the West is at war with "precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran, and further elaborated in the literature of the hadith."[7]p.109-110

I cannot understand the purpose of you making this quote. Which part of what is said above is incorrect and why?

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Speaking of Muslim anti-Semitism, here we go:



I just cannot understand what does it represent this time around.

Whether they are thanking Hitler for murdering Jews they love so dearly or they are thanking Hitler for encouraging and speeding up advent of Zionism.

It looks like these people cannot even grasp the irony of their statement.

What's the point of this "muslim anti-semitism" thing ? How can you prove that muslims hate generally the jews by showing a picture where two persons holds a stupid slogan about Hitler bla bla bla ?

Don't you know that there are Israelis, from russian origines, living in Israel and considering themselves as nazis ? You probably should have heard it. Can we conclude that there is a Jewish Anti-semitism too ?

If someday we want to solve this conflict, we'll have to stop playing with our emotions. Stop bringing up the shoah, the anti-semitism, the Eretz Israel theory etc.

The first step is to recognize that all human beings are equal and that the life of a palestinian is as much important as the life of an israeli, then we'll be able to talk. Otherwise, we're wasting our time.